would you pack a reserve over 30 years old

[airnutt 8]

I had a cust ask me to pack a res its a Raven 2 and DOM is Feb of 1987
should I pack it and if so should I do any tests on the fabric to ensure its safe

[gowlerk 1,904]

I can't tell you if you should pack it or if you should test it. That all would depend on inspecting it and knowing something about it's history. I can answer your title question though. Yes.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[RiggerLee 61]

The only real question is, "Is it air worthy?"

Having said that, help my memory, is it a Raven or a Super Raven? If it's an old one you might want to have a conversation with him about the quality of the canopy, Bikini sliders, and wing loading's on old ass reserves. It was a big step when they redesigned and went to the super Raven. The original was more on the Cruselite, Pegasus order of performance.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[riggerrob 558]

We recently had a similar debate about a 28 year old APS Bogie reserve. We concluded that the fabric and lines were still in great shape, but we needed to advise the customer to keep his wing-loading less than 1/1.

The original reason for setting life limits on parachutes was fear of silk parachutes rotting or being eaten by months.
The second reason was wear and tear and corrosion caused by daily use. Both Butler and Para-Phernalia refuse to repack pilot emergency parachutes more than 20 years old.

The third reason is obsolescence. Newer designs fly better. This returns to my first paragraph. Since older (pre 1990) mains did not land gracefully when loaded at more than 1/1, a young skydiver is silly to expect it to land softly while loaded more than 1/1.

The fourth reason is acid mesh. Back during the 1980s, a bad batch of mesh caused a few round reserves to disintegrate. That problem caused demand for round reserves to drop below Death Valley. Since all those suspect round reserves are more than 30 years old, they below in museums.

Finally, after seven-cell canopies made of F-111 fabric disappeared from the skydiving scene, older jumpers forgot how to flare them and younger jumpers never learned how to fly them, increasing the risk of injury when landing unfamiliar 7-cell reserves.

[RiggerLee 61]

There is one other motivation for placing a life span limit on parachutes. $$$$ Skydiving gear pretty much takes care of it self. People want the new and shiny. And there has been real evolution in the designs. Pilot rigs are a different story. First they don't care. They would fly them for ever or until they will no longer serve as a seat cushion. Second there has been very little actual evolution in design. The only real exceptions are the Buttler sliders and some people might argue the Aviator canopy. And they don't care. I don't know how they stay in business. It's like Cypres. It they didn't put a life span on their units the company would be gone. They built one for every skydiver and they were done. They put a life span on their unit and they get to start all over again.

I'm not saying that this is totally a bad thing. There are a lot of old pilot rigs that just need to go away. They treat them like shit. They shouldn't expect them to last. It's a bit much to expect a unit like a cypres to last forever. At least it has over hauls. But you can't pretend that there isn't a monetary motivation in this.

One other big, really big, motivation for placing a life span on your gear, liability. It killed general aviation. They build a plane and then they are liable for it forever. And they were lasting forever. People being sued over seventy year old planes. There was no releaf till the passed a law limiting there liability to X years. It saved GA. By putting a life limit you divorce your self from all of those old rigs.

I'm not a fan. But there are reasons why they are doing it although some of the reasons are a little self serving.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[councilman24 36]

If its an original Raven no. I haven't packed one of them aince the 80's for design reasons. Super Raven of course depends. If it has been in constant use and kept in date it wuite likely is wore out from packing. If it has been a closet queen maybe. Would I not pack it based on age alone? No.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

The only ram air reserve I have ever heard of failing a fabric tensile test is an APS Laser that I found. It failed at less than 2 pounds in a limited area. No abuse. Deterioration based in combination with coated free bag. Nobody seems to believe me but I still have it.

I have choose not to pack one since.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[RiggerLee 61]

Are you thinking that it was the coating or some thing else? The outer layers, gores 1 and the last one being on the out side take all the damage. Any thing that is going to damage the packed canopy will have to pass through them. Same for certain areas of a square. It reminds me of a cat pee incident. Those outer layers tore like tissue. It was jumped. You could see the sections that tore or blew out or some areas stretched breaking fibers all over that area. If it wasn't for the smell you might have thought it was the coating on the bag but that was just the area most exposed.

Also saw Wag tear an old square. It was OLD had that musty old nylon smell. Safety Flyer? or some early first gen canopy. Quincy. Pulled it out in front of the guy. Smelled that shit. Wag picks up the center cell, pops it, and tears it from nose to tail with his long monkey arms like tissue paper. "You tore my canopy!"

Wag, "Your welcome."

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[airnutt 8]

thanksRob I appreciate the info, this is Brian from Eloy I think I worked with you at Rigging Innovations for a while when you ran the loft.I just needed the input because I rarely run into people who have their reserves for this length of time.
Brian

[councilman24 36]

It was interaction between coating and fabric. It was where you could feel the urethane on the reserve. I routinely tested canopies whwre you could feel the transfer with no issues. Then this one failed before I could evwn really load it. Just like acid mesh failures were NOT just the mesh. I had one bias constructed canopy with two white panels in one gore next to one piece of mesh. One panel failed at 2-3 lbs and the other was full strength. Since the day they were sewn together they saw exactly the same environment. Of course the two pieces of white fabric could have been from different bolts, lots, or even suppliers. It was NEVER just the mesh.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[riggerrob 558]

........... Also saw Wag tear an old square. It was OLD had that musty old nylon smell. Safety Flyer? or some early first gen canopy. Quincy. Pulled it out in front of the guy. Smelled that shit. Wag picks up the center cell, pops it, and tears it from nose to tail with his long monkey arms like tissue paper. "You tore my canopy!"

Wag, "Your welcome."

Lee

--------------------------------------------------

I too have torn a hole in a Para-Flite Safety-Flier reserve. It was made of 1.25 oz., pre-F111, Lopo fabric. Safety-Fliers were the first square reserves and they were only sold between 1977 and 1981.

That same year I pulled a hole in an old, low-speed round reserve. It a Handbury (?) canopy was made from two different bolts of white, Lopo fabric. The shiner fabric tore in several places, but the duller (resembling MIL SPEC Lopo fabric) ignored my tests.
All my tests were done in accordance with the PIA, Security, National test procedures. I have pull-tested another thousan round reserves without problems.
.... er ...... except for those faded, frayed and stained military-surplus reserves ...... but that was clearly a wear issue. Why worn reserves were installed in pilot emergency parachutes is an ethical question????????

Considering that Performance Designs introduced their reserves in 1989, are riggers going to start refusing to repack reserves designed more than 30 years ago? ...... provided those PD reserves have been inspected at the factory ....?

[RiggerLee 61]

Trying to make my brain work. Could you be thinking about the... Feather canopies? Did Ashudo make them? I think they were in his... Wedge rigs? It's been a long time but I seem to recall that they were made from two different fabrics. Normal 1.1 nylon at the top around the crown and the lowest panel, the majority of the canopy, out of a lighter... 0.9 or some thing like that. I remember Stanford warning me that you could NOT do a standard 40# pull test on the lower half of the canopy. They packed up super small. It was like 3/4 of the canopy was made from modern low bulk nylon.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Rob,

Quote

provided those PD reserves have been inspected at the factory

I'm hearing something about PD getting out of this practice. That they are looking to have 'locations' around to do this instead of having their factory people do it. These 'locations' would be riggers out in the field who have had some type of certification from PD to do the testing.

Anyone else hearing this?

Jerry Baumchen

PS) Sorry to hi-jack the thread.

[base283 0]

I am a rigger and was asked to do a canopy control. The canopy was from a major player. I found an "A" and "B" swapped. When I contacted the Manu, They researched their full process on manufacturing tolerances.
All was made good. But the lesson to learn is that all humans make mistakes, Being a rigger or manufacturer doesn´t mean that one is infallible. Check it out yourself. never trust that it was correct from the manu or from another rigger.
The early Ravens had a prob as a main. Due to the PC attachment point being undersewed. But this was not applicable to using it as a reserve because of the freebag config.
It passed the B tests. So that being said, it is upto the rigger being to be a physicist. Looking how forces are applied and can the material/construction takes its load.
One of my BASE canopies is more than 20 years old with 500+ jumps. No prob yet. it I keep in tune.
So to answer your question, I will pack and sign off a parachute if the physics allow this load distribution required by the placard (Data panel) and the jumpers weight. if i have doubts about the airworthiness, I simply say no.
Take care,
space