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NickyCal

Flying a flag without weight from the D lines

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I'm going on the assumption that this is a bad idea, and thus is not the done thing. Obviously, a big ol' weight and dropping the flag on the ground are not ideal, but if there was another way, surely it would be in practice. Other equally inexperienced jumper (~550 jumps, 3 years in the sport, not a rigger) is rigging a flag into his D lines in preparation for "demo season" in the local area. He won't listen to the wisdom of riggers and more senior jumpers on the DZ -- "they just don't want me to do it because they didn't think of it themselves!". Before he goes out and gets himself killed/injured/embarrassed in front of an audience, can we please get some expert knowledge and wisdom on the subject? What say you experienced riggers? His plan is either to put it in the D lines or to rig a separate flag line at the back (attached to canopy) via which he will "raise" the flag after opening. Many thanks in advance.

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It's not as insane as it sounds. And for the record it has been done. People have actually been doing this for a long time. Glide Path/Flight Concepts used to do this mod to demo canopies. Note that theses were generally things like Star Tracks. The demo canopies of that time period. Actually I think the Knights still use them. Point is they were large low performance canopies not hot rods. But yes it works and it looks fairly cool. Even with a large canopy your rather limited in size. The way Red used to set the canopy up they actually built a "pocket" on the bottom of the canopy. It was a flat, vertical envelope sewn to the bottom seam of the load bearing rib of the center cell. So it was sewn at the top edge to the seam. On these canopies you could easily sew it to the flares on the bottom skin. The long envelope opened on the bottom with peaces of velcro. The flag attached at the top, folded and then slipped into this long pocket running along the seam. An extra line ran down to the riser. Ring on the riser. Open. Pull the line down till the flag flies well and tie or clip the line to the ring. I don't recall where the top was attached I don't think it was the D line I think it was farther forwards at the B or C. It's bulky as hell. Were talking dedicated demo rigs. This is from memory, I never jumped one. I don't know why he didn't raise the flag from below. If you did that the bulk problem goes away but the ring at the top acts like a pulley. It dubles the load on that point from the flag. It may distort it too much.

So he's not insane. It has been done. It does work well. With a full size flag he may find it draggy. Smaller flags are far less of a problem but it's not the same visual of a mega flag hanging bellow the canopy. I've even seen people fly two flags like this. An American on one side and a POW on the other. They were smaller, maybe 5 ft tall. If he really want to learn how to do this call Red at Flight concepts.

Lee
Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

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You know, we looked all over and couldn't find anybody doing it this way (thus my assumption that it wasn't a good idea, after he'd been told "impossible!" by the local riggers). But, sounds like not only has it been done, but he's right on track with how he wants to do it. So, I'll leave it and let him experiment. I'll give him that info, as well, in case he wants to check in. Thanks so much. I feel more at ease!

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You should NOT feel at ease. In case you missed it... This is NOT rigged to the d lines and the flag is on the canopy. It is on a separate line and requires modification of the riser as well as construction of the flag bag and attachment. I had drawings and specifications from the Golden Knights rigger on how to do this. Modified a rig and constructed the bag. And had two failures to work right and almost had to cut the dam thing away both times. This was on a docile seven cell canopy.

It is not easy to get right. It is not something someone other than an experienced rigger should be 'experimenting' with. Tell him to find someone that KNOWS how to do it, pony up the money to get it right from Red or to find life insurance that will cover skydiving. Also remember that the 14CFR requires that any work done on the main be done by a licensed rigger.

The much easier option is to connect a flag to a riser and your foot after opening and fly it behind your body.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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A good friend of mine had this specially done by North American Aero on his Parafoil 282. He is an experienced civilian and military rigger with design experience at a manufacturer. The system entailed a pouch on thre bottom skin, an extra line left out of a slider grommet, and a secondary line to unzip a daisy chain once the flag was pulled out of the pouch. It resulted in 2 cutaways in a 1 month period plus crashing into an army parade during a demo, ending the careers of 2 army band members.

I vote you do what Councilguy said.
=========Shaun ==========


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I agree with Terry, don't do stuff to your main canopy unless you are: a) A rigger, b) Under the direct supervision of a rigger, and c) Plenty knowledgable about what you're doing.

Flying one without weights (I hate weights, especially the risk of losing them during a demo and giving someone downstairs a permanent headache) is easily done by attaching it to your foot in a pouch, and only hooking it to your riser after you've had a proper deployment. If you want, I can send you a load of photo's of a similar system to mine to use as inspiration.

The only limitation with that system is the length from your foot to your riser, anything larger than ~2m high won't fly nicely. A 2m by 3m flag is still a very impressive thing for demo's though. See attached photo for my system in action.

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I've been flying small/mid-sized flags for over 25 years (~500+ jumps with them) and it can be fun, it can also kill you or someone else if you are not careful.

GET HELP FROM SOMEONE EXPERIENCED IN THIS FIRST.

Weighted system:
weights can be dropped (done it).
Weights will swing as you turn.
drop flags (weights) will stop moving forward before you do.
* see "anchor" for the list of possible outcomes *

Ankle to riser system: (like the one pictured in another reply, its my most common type)
- once deployed, you are tied to your main by your ankle.
- this can be disconcerting if you later realize you have an issue with your main (been there), or if you end up in a wrap.
- flag display is slightly diminished as your burble disrupts the air around the flag.
(see https://youtu.be/VgfoBoNYsA8 )

And to your question... in the lines:
- good news - when it causes a malfunction, it should leave cleanly with your main (been there/done that)
- bad news - its the most likely system to cause an issue with your main... though when properly rigged, it works well...
- It is NOT done with the suspension lines, but rather with an extra looped line and a stowage bag sewn to the underskin of the canopy, generally between the C/D line attachment points on one side of the center cell.
- It increases the bulk of your canopy... not good if you already have a tight packjob.
- It also increases the weight of your main... not good if you have a smaller/worn-out pilot 'chute.

*Note the emphasis on "sewn"... early on I had the great idea to use links to temporarily install it at the line attachment tapes... removable, what could be better... well the last time I used that system it flipped through itself during packing and trapped a breakline. Demo jump ended up with an unplanned cutaway at 1800' as the canopy spins backwards.
- I do think that for small/mid-sized flags, the in-lines rigged flags fly/display best.

Finally - all of these systems cause distraction, change your pre-jump checks, increase the possible in-fligh complications, some change your emergency procedures and all increase your risk level. The list of comparison above is VERY abreviated... there are many other aspects to each system that come into play...

I know it can be hard to find folks experienced in designing/rigging a flag system, but we are out here... come find us. If you're in the mid-Atlantic area, send me a PM.

JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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