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TMPattersonJr

Single Side Racer RSL Pics.

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Well it has had issues. Remember the double tandem fatality at Jonesville, NC???



Was there ever any report on exactly what went wrong there? I've only heard rumours and innuendo. But I also know the hesitator loop was added at least partly in response.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Ken,
I don't know if Bill actually stated what went down in a report, but I was pretty knowledgeable of the accident. I was scheduled to be there that day but my neighbor prevented that.
I got the call right after it happened.

It was a snivel that resulted in a Cypres fire, and when the canopy opened the freebag fell out pulling the collins lanyard.This released the left riser. The instructor later released the other one.

Bill maintained that the instructor somehow pulled the collins lanyard himself IIRC.

The freebag was dangling from the skyhook and spinning around with no possible way of deployment.

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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masterrigger1

Ken,
I don't know if Bill actually stated what went down in a report, but I was pretty knowledgeable of the accident. I was scheduled to be there that day but my neighbor prevented that.
I got the call right after it happened.

It was a snivel that resulted in a Cypres fire, and when the canopy opened the freebag fell out pulling the collins lanyard.This released the left riser. The instructor later released the other one.

Bill maintained that the instructor somehow pulled the collins lanyard himself IIRC.

The freebag was dangling from the skyhook and spinning around with no possible way of deployment.

MEL



Backwards loaded the collins lanyard through the Skyhook. Damn.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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There was also a student at Skydive Chicago - video was on here at the time. Deployed at a normal 5kish altitude, but had a hard opening and ripped stitches on his Vector 3. Flew around with a trailing freebag but didn't notice it. As he made his turn to final the bag finally fell out of the container releasing one riser just like in the tandem incident. The student did the wrong thing from what we teach (cut away at a few hundred feet) but in this case it let the skyhook pull out the reserve in time and he walked away. Very lucky...

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Wow, what a complicated failure mode!

masterrigger1


The freebag was dangling from the skyhook and spinning around with no possible way of deployment.


So the reserve free bag first pulled on the red skyhook lanyard which resulted in disconnecting the left riser and then (after the full cutaway was performed) the skyhook lanyard got off the skyhook, otherwise the departing main would just pull on the bridle back and just deploy the reserve?
But what does it mean to be "dangling from the skyhook" now that the skyhook lanyard is gone?
What am I missing?

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unkulunkulu

Wow, what a complicated failure mode!

***
The freebag was dangling from the skyhook and spinning around with no possible way of deployment.


So the reserve free bag first pulled on the red rsl lanyard which resulted in disconnecting the left riser and then (after the full cutaway was performed) the rsl lanyard got off the skyhook, otherwise the departing main would just pull on the bridle back and just deploy the reserve?
But what does it mean to be "dangling from the skyhook" now that the rsl lanyard is gone?
What am I missing?


I'm thinking something similar to you. The cutaway should allow either the Skyhook or the P/C to continue deploying the reserve. Or at least raise it above the pair, (who knows what configuration the lines were in by then).
But since it was an AAD fire (which should be at around 2 grand) they probably were out of time by then.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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But what does it mean to be "dangling from the skyhook" now that the skyhook lanyard is gone?
What am I missing?


The lanyard was not gone....
It was a couple seconds after the freebag fell out before the instructor cutaway the other side. This left the bag still suspended by the RSL/Skyhook during that time. It was spinning around with the lines and bridle becoming entangled.

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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Will there ever be an option to order a racer freebag that does use multiple rubber band stows, 'speedbag' style? That is my ONLY gripe about packing my reserves. The 'two stow and stuff' method is more forgiving to my work allergies............ :P
Woot Woot!

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Hesitator loops are most relevant with heavy reserve canopies.
Back when (up until the mid-1980s) heavy military-surplus and Lopo round reserves were fashionable, most containers included hesitated/staging loops made of bungee cord.
Their objective was to prevent the reserve canopy from falling off your back until the pilot-chute was definitely pulling.
Hesitater loops fell out of fashion as reserves got lighter and lighter, containers got tighter and tighter and we depended more and more on friction (between bag and container to stage openings.
However tandem reserves remained huge and heavy and we eventually found out (the bloody way) that heavy reserves could cutaway one side of a main canopy ... via a Collins lanyard.
UPT's fix is to install bungee hesitater/staging loops in their larger student and tandem containers.

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****** ...... The cross connected RSL offers absolutely no advantages at all, only disadvantages. .......

------------------------------------------------------------------
Many trips to hell start with good intentions.

The original motivation for cross-connector RSLs was to require both main risers to disappear before the reserve container opened .... reducing the risk of two-out entanglements.
Cross-connectors were standard on many early (1980s) student piggyback containers (e.g. Else-Flyer).
Unfortunately, cross-connectors can increase the risk of other types of entanglements: helmets, cameras or reserves.

Several other manufacturers have invented several other solutions: French L.O.R. and UPT's Collins Lanyard. Parachutes de France's L.O.R. system uses two RSLs, two curved pins and two closing loops to ensure that both main risers are gone before the reserve container opens. A decade after the Collins Lanyard was introduced a clumsy tandem instructor deployed his main low and learned (the bloody way) about a disadvantage with Collins Lanyards.
Cross-connectors were an early, crude attempt at preventing a malfunction mode. L.O.R. was a better way. Collins Lantard is even better, but we are still searching for the perfect RSL.

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Nothing is perfect, or ever will be.

In my opinion, simple and robust is best. Start with a properly trained skydiver. Give him properly built and maintained three ring release system (quality risers), add an RSL, deploy at a reasonable altitude and you address 99% of your problems. I think that we are creating new ways to kill ourselves by trying to design equipment that solves problems that are primarily caused by poor procedures and insufficient training.

VR training equipment is the next big evolution in student training. The military has figured this out already.

My home DZ used Racers with dual sided RSL's and round reserves for 20+ years without incident. Students were trained how to use the equipment, end of story.

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Your comments relate to Bill Booth'stheory of risk homeostasis.

Once an invention "solves" a malfunction mode, skydivers use that new "safety feature" as an excuse to take greater risks (e.g. deploying mains lower).

The flip side is that old malfunctions quickly fade from "common knowledge". Part of the problem is that young skydivers never hear about the old malfunction.

For example, USPA popularized seat-belts for skydivers after a couple of fatal crashes in 1992. But locally, lack of seatbelts injured everyone onboard when a King Air crashed 9 years ago. Even though the wreckage still lurks on the edge of the boarding area, current skydiving instructors avoid talking about it for fear of scaring young jumpers. Ergo, young jumpers don't wear seat-belts because they are not fashionable.

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In my opinion, simple and robust is best.



This statement left out the Racer Dual sided RSL out of the equation..


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Start with a properly trained skydiver.



It is better to start with well designed gear or gear without known issues, then add a well trained skydiver.

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My home DZ used Racers with dual sided RSL's and round reserves for 20+ years without incident.



IIRC,not if your home DZ was Cleveland....
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3678254;search_string=double%20fatality%20cleveland;#3678254

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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riggerrob

The flip side is that old malfunctions quickly fade from "common knowledge". Part of the problem is that young skydivers never hear about the old malfunction.



Good point, and worth considering. that would make a good topic for discussion. Injuries and fatalities tend to follow trends.

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I'm well aware of that fatality, it was a very good friend and former student of mine. I chose to not refer to it as it was a result of a rigging error that was very unusual. The dual sided RSL works if used properly. With well built risers, I think a single sided RSL is a better choice. Gear does evolve.

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I chose to not refer to it as it was a result of a rigging error that was very unusual.



Well it is not that unusual. It has happened before and is also noted in the manual.
It is just another bad byproduct coming from using a dual sided RSL.

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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Dutton

I have found misrouted single sided RSL's quite a few times. People are capable of screwing anything up.

Since you seem to be the type of guy who always has to have the last word, have at it.



Let me try. Racer fans do this quite often. Instead of defending this flawed design they say "what about the other guy". Over and over again. That is simply changing the subject.

What should be the last word for this design is a simple "discontinued".
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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TMPattersonJr, it's nice to see some new energy in the organization. I'll say in public what I told Nancy a year or so ago, and I hope you give it some thought.

PLabs has some nice engineering-based solutions. Being different is not always better. Take for example the rant about type 13. It is a bit better, but times changed in the last 20 years and newer hardware works fine with the type 7/type 8 everyone else uses!

The everyone elses stuff is bad attitude has resulted in a strong reaction against your products nearly every time the discussion has come up among experienced jumpers and riggers. If it was best, everyone would be jumping one. I'm not saying Racers are bad, but the marketing hasn't exactly been stellar.

The pattern PLabs has been stuck in for the last 20+ years goes like this "their system is bad because..." Great, you just insulted a potential's customers purchasing decision.

Instead, you can show your product and say: "Let me show you why we feel that our product is best." Don't mention a single competitor and only speak in positives. We chose teflon cable instead of the yellow ones because it doesn't have to be lubricated every month. Try it, it's harder to do.

Even your original post smells of that attitude.

I'm hoping to see some good things from you guys.

-Michael

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hackish

Take for example the rant about type 13. It is a bit better, but times changed in the last 20 years and newer hardware works fine with the type 7/type 8 everyone else uses!



You will have the same discussion and I have proven that Ty. 7, 8, and 13 can slip in the best and worse of circumstances. The hardware has gotten better but there isn't a prefect piece of hardware out there yet.

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The everyone elses stuff is bad attitude has resulted in a strong reaction against your products nearly every time the discussion has come up among experienced jumpers and riggers. If it was best, everyone would be jumping one. I'm not saying Racers are bad, but the marketing hasn't exactly been stellar.



I have my reasons for not caring for some of the other manufacturers gear and if asked about it I will talk about it. But it is not up in my first offering. I spend my time in here attempting to educate the masses in trying to deflate the opinions that are out there about our equipment. Unfortunately being an internet forum there are several people out there that "know" what they are talking about and then there are those that actually know what they are talking about. Trying to weed through the opinions and give as much factual information will sometime require the use of examples that others will understand. It's not meant to point the finger at it is meant to give reference to. But because of who I am and who I work for it usually gets pointed out that I'm trying to talk bad about someone else equipment. When that was never the intention.

I will say that that has not always been the case here and I know that, But I tread very lightly when even mentioning another piece of equipment.

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The pattern PLabs has been stuck in for the last 20+ years goes like this "their system is bad because..." Great, you just insulted a potential's customers purchasing decision.



And you've never gotten a sales pitch from me ;)

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Instead, you can show your product and say: "Let me show you why we feel that our product is best." Don't mention a single competitor and only speak in positives. We chose teflon cable instead of the yellow ones because it doesn't have to be lubricated every month. Try it, it's harder to do.



Again, you haven't heard me talk about our system, except for here. Defending against the uneducated or unknowing and even sometimes the knowing is much different than a sales pitch...

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Even your original post smells of that attitude.



Actually it would be my original reply. My original post has no bias, just an informative piece. Again I mentioned that another piece of equipment if improperly used can kill you just as easily as my piece of equipment. And the statement is completely true. If you misuse the equipment in our sport it can, has and will kill you. That was the only point that I was trying to make. But because I even mentioned something manufactured by someone else I'm saying it's bad. Not at all, its in the context of the post that people will not look at. They will just figure that I am who I am and I'm badmouthing the competition.

I know talking in person is different than online but read the entire post and understand what I'm actually saying before you raise judgement.

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I'm hoping to see some good things from you guys.



That makes the both of us. :)
Blue SkiesBlack DeathFacebook
www.PLabsInc.com
www.SkydiveDeLand.com
www.FlyteSkool.ws

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gowlerk

***I have found misrouted single sided RSL's quite a few times. People are capable of screwing anything up.

Since you seem to be the type of guy who always has to have the last word, have at it.



Let me try. Racer fans do this quite often. Instead of defending this flawed design they say "what about the other guy". Over and over again. That is simply changing the subject.

What should be the last word for this design is a simple "discontinued".

Actually in its time it was a great design and as long as the individual who was using it was trained to use it, there were few issues. It has become an issue when not the entire emergency procedure have been trained or even mentioned and living in the world today where everyone has to have their hand held to understand the simple workings of a backup system. Instead of looking at the equipment that they are putting on their back that has to save their live the expect that it works like everything else. Well it doesn't...

I know I'm trying to defend what you say is flawed but if used properly there isn't a flaw in it. It is the knowledge that is being handed down and that is why we as a company now are making changes to try and go with the current trend. Trust me I have been pulling fingernails to get these changes made. But the changes are coming. There are things in the works here but I'm only one guy and changing some things are not going to happen overnight. I pick my battles one at a time and see where they lead. ;)
Blue SkiesBlack DeathFacebook
www.PLabsInc.com
www.SkydiveDeLand.com
www.FlyteSkool.ws

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Actually in its time it was a great design and as long as the individual who was using it was trained to use it, there were few issues.




I only go back to '92. Back then several people at the DZ had Racers and they were considered to be very good equipment. Except for the RSL. Everyone back then knew that Racers were fine, but for some reason they had this ultra stupid RSL design. So everyone disconnected them. All the riggers said so then. And it is still true. Except maybe today you would say "uber" stupid instead!
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Actually in its time it was a great design and as long as the individual who was using it was trained to use it, there were few issues,




The defense of the dual RSL is astounding. I only started jumping in 1991 so I missed out on it's origin. That's still a lot of years for a poor RSL application to be in service. It was never a good design . The only reason there were few issues was because cutaways don't happen that often. Reserve first 2 canopy out scenarios happen even less frequently.

Imagine a reserve first 2 out that's spinning. "No panic". Simply disconnect one or the other snap shackle, then cutaway. That is the worst possible training suggestion I've heard. Besides that nifty scenario, if you forget to tuck your head during a normal cutaway, that lanyard has to pass your head, and anything your head has on it.

The very first Racer I packed in 1993 or 1994 had the RSL under the top flap when he dropped it of. It was immediately converted. The 2 DZOs both owned Racer as did a few other people. They all knew the RSL was too much of a potential killer.

I'm glad it's finally going away. It's decades overdue. Thanks.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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