Is it blasphemy to state God's reasons?

[lawrocket 3]

I am not a very religious man. I have some background - most of it through private study. I have gradually been moving from the hardcore atheist I was ten years ago to a more spiritual line of thinking. I find that there are many things religion teaches that are beneficial to my coping, i.e., why bad things happen to good people, doing unto others, etc. Still, Plato had a more profound effect on my life.

To the point, however, is seeing the video of Phelps' daughter, knowing about Rev. Fred Phelps, and the things said by Pat Robertson, etc. Each claim that God is lashing out at the people of the country for some wrong committed.

The most powerful book of the bible to me was the Book of Job. For those that dont' know it, Job was a dude back in the day who didn't believe in the same gods as his contemporaries. He believed in God. Job had it all - money, land, cattle, slaves, a good family life. God and the Devil were talking, and God pointed out Job as an example of why Devil was wrong, and how much Job loves him. The Devil said he could change that, and in Trading Places style, God and the Devil made a bet that Job's virtues would be gone if the Devil cold do what he wanted.

Now, Job started losing it all - his land, holdings, family, health, etc. Each time some calamity would happen leaving only one survivor - as if the devil himself, Kaiser Soze, had killed all oxen, slaves, sheep, etc., leaving only one survivor to tell the tale, but Job kept his loyalty.

Then the devil asked to strike him with ill health, and God allowed the Devil to do whatever he wanted except to actually kill Job. So Job was now a leper, and his wife left him.

Job's buddies even came over and after a few days, Job started bitching. Job's buddies told him, "You know, you must've been doing some bad stuff." Job knew he was innocent, but his friends weren't buying it.

So as this discussion between Job and his buddies was going on about why God was doing what he was doing, God appeared and spoke some pretty neat words, "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge."

God then asked a bunch of rhetorical questions to them. Basically, his words can be summarized as follows: "Who the hell do you think you are to state my motivations. I created a universe, and none of you can dare to think what I thought. You want to find fault with me? If you wanna scrap, bring it on. Any of you who think you know my reasons, you don't know shit. When you create a universe, maybe then we'll talk. But I've got my reasons, and don't act like you know them."

And then God punished Job's buddies for trying to explain God's reasons when they didn't know anything.

---

Now, that book seemed to be a pretty clear warning to all people who would claim to know why God does anything. Last I checked, the Old Testament was a part of the Christian bible, and the Koran. Only prophets are allowed to speak for God. As Matthew 7: 15 says, “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”

Yet, a close correlation exists between Job's buddies and Robertson, Phelps, and any of a number of other "spiritual leaders" from all religions that have the book of Job in their scripture.

"9/11 was God's punishment." Huh? Are you speaking for God? Did God tell you this? Tell me what universe you created and maybe I'll pay attention.

Hurricane Katrina, the Sago Mine death and US military deaths caused by God's contempt against them for not hating fags? Tell me, Mr. Disbarred Phelps, whay did God choose his measurements for the planet earth?"

It seems to me that any of this talk is outright blasphemy when looking at the Bible. Jesus could talk about things under Christian faiths - he was the son of God and had an open line of communications with his dad. Jews didn't buy it, though, and you don't see any rabbi's goign around speaking of God's motivations.

Who in the hell do these people think they are? Prophets? This seems to me to be blasphemy. What will happen to these people? I dunno. I'll let God figure it out, and I won't feign to provide counsel to Him on what to do.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[justinb138 0]

This reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw on a car a few days ago. It said "God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts".

[windcatcher 0]

Well, in the bible God says "For my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts higher than yours."

Clearly, we cannot understand everything about God, because He is God! He has a higher purpose in everything, and He has a different understanding of things than we do.

I don't it's necessarily blasphemous to say that God does bring judgement. When people try and mock God and live evil, perverted lives, I believe He can bring circumstances to correct people--so that they have a chance to turn and repent from their ways.

Anyway, overall I don't think people can claim any "one" act is God's judgement, but the Bible does say that God will judge the nations.

edited to add: THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES for sin. Trust me, I know firsthand.

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[storm1977 0]

Off topic, but someone once said;

"If there were no God, there would be no Atheists"

It made me think.....

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[steveorino 7]

I love Jesus' response to a similar question in Luke 13; 1-6

Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

Obviously, Jesus thought it was foolish to always attach divine judgment to bad things

steveOrino

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

I don't it's necessarily blasphemous to say that God does bring judgement

I don't believe these people are saying that. That God brings judgment is well-regarded.

What these people are saying is that, "This is going on. And God says that this is wrong. Therefore, God is punishing you for this."

In Job, God punsihed Job's buddies for expounding on God's thinking and reasoning. It is a sin to claim to know God's reasons, is it not? The book shows that those who would do so are to be punished. God shall pass judgment on them.

However, the book also shows that calamity, misfortune and pestilence are not necessarily the result of God passing "judgment."

Quote

When people try and mock God and live evil, perverted lives, I believe He can bring circumstances to correct people--so that they have a chance to turn and repent from their ways.

Of course, He can. However, is it with our province us to say that He DOES? Is it within our province to say why, when, or how He does?

Again, as the book shows, God has his own reasons that we don't know. What befalls us, be it good or bad, is not necessarily punishment or reward. After all, is our biggest reward anything that we have or will receive on this earth? (As an aside, when Job got his wealth and holdings and everything back times 7 at the end, I thought the story took a weird turn that didnt' fit with the rest of the book)

Quote

I don't think people can claim any "one" act is God's judgement, but the Bible does say that God will judge the nations.

And I think it's blasphemous to think that any one act - or series of acts - is or is not God's judgment. That's what Job was about - all that stuff that happened to him was not for any reason anyone could understand. Those who believed that it was "judgment" were punished.

God's judgments and reasons are supposed to be the great unknown, are they not? Is God judging the nations? Has he judged the nations? Only God knows, and anyone who states that this is the case "darkens counsel by words without knowledge."

Maybe I reach these conclusions because of my near total lack of any formal religious education. I read it and intepreted it myself. But it makes sense.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Zenister 0]

Humanity errors whenever it claims to know the mind of Divinity...

these claims do NOT exclude the Bible, no matter how often Xtians claim it as "God's Sole word"

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[hairyjuan 0]

Quote

Well, in the bible God says "For my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts higher than yours."

Clearly, we cannot understand everything about God, because He is God! He has a higher purpose in everything, and He has a different understanding of things than we do.

I don't it's necessarily blasphemous to say that God does bring judgement. When people try and mock God and live evil, perverted lives, I believe He can bring circumstances to correct people--so that they have a chance to turn and repent from their ways.

Anyway, overall I don't think people can claim any "one" act is God's judgement, but the Bible does say that God will judge the nations.

edited to add: THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES for sin. Trust me, I know firsthand.

You say that you know 'firsthand'. Firsthand knowledge requires that you have been to the 'other side' and returned. When did you go and when didyou return, windcatcher?


St Anasthius, "should we take the 'sacred writ' tothe letter, we would be committing the most ENORMOUS of blasphemies".


You can never come to a conclusion about life. Life is an eternal thing just as we are an eternal thing. we have to start searching for more meaning of what we are. Well, the meaning of what we are has yet to be discovered by us.__Ramtha


Spirit and science are humanity's two grand approaches to the Truth. Both are searching for the truth about us and our universe; both are seeking answers to the Great Questions. They are two sides of the same coin.
I Don't See Religion in that statement, do you?

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[Channman 2]

In the end God told Satan to leave him alone and He restored Job's Health, Wealth, and family and I might add more than likely a set of new friends.

[livendive 8]

Quote

edited to add: THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES for sin. Trust me, I know firsthand.

Next time try to be sneakier.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Quote

THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES for sin. Trust me, I know firsthand

You mean actual ones, or ones made up by the bible and the church?

Like the ones for masturbating and the ones for living with some one and the ones for using birth control etc etc.

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

these claims do NOT exclude the Bible, no matter how often Xtians claim it as "God's Sole word"

That's a different topic. I am merely assuming that if the Bible is God's sole word, the Bible instructs people not to guess at God's purposes - it warns all that anybody stating God's purposes has no idea what he or she is talking about, and absolutely cannot know these things.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[niolosoiale 0]

Quote

Off topic, but someone once said;

"If there were no God, there would be no Atheists"

It made me think.....

Off-topic response...

If one person has an idea, another person will disagree. Doesn't mean either one of them are right.

E for Effort though.

[DaVinci 0]

I am wary of anyone claiming to know Gods plan or reason.

It is one of the reasons I don't like religion. I don't mind it either, but I hate how some claim to know something that they could not.

I mainly hate how people try to force their beliefs on others.

George Carlin said it pretty well. "Do you believe in God? No? (Carlin shoots the imaginary person) Bang!"

(Carlin turns to the next person) "Do you believe in God? Yes." (Carlin turns away and then back) Do you believe in MY God? No? Bang".

This can be taken even farther. "Do you choose to worship him in the way I do?" Or even "Do you choose to go to the same Church I do?"

It seems that unless you are doing exactly how that person wants you must change. If you don't change are a sinner and Evil.

[stoneycase 0]

Quote

Who in the hell do these people think they are? Prophets? This seems to me to be blasphemy. What will happen to these people? I dunno. I'll let God figure it out, and I won't feign to provide counsel to Him on what to do.

ah...so that video ruffled your feathers as well law? man when i saw that, i tell you, i just kinda blankly stared and thought WTF WTF WTF.

shirley and fred think they are saviors. they think they *must* spread the word that we are all committing abominations against god. in their mind, they *have to* go out and call us all sodomy sympathsizers bound for ye old inferno.

on that video, shirley gets most animated when the back and forth starts about whether or not she feels good about her actions. she gets excited, imo, because her conviction is to spread the 'good word' (i.e. hate) to everyone, even those who refuse to listen. do as colmes did and tear her down, tell her "how dare you" and she'll respond with "i must".

they think they are a savior of the usa, someone to set our 'moral compass' back on the straight and narrow. as i seem to recall, she also says in that video something to the effect that "this is the way God told us it would be, everyone disbelieving the word and criticizing the believers" so here they are thinking they're a savior, recognizing everyone is against them, and then turning back to their evidence, the Bible, and pulling out the well known idea that "the believers must continue their efforts despite criticism from a vocal majority".

you're left, imo, with 2 choices:

- discredit the hag as a nutcase, a blasphemer, a disturbed old woman, whatever. you focus on her

- discredit the evidence. go at the source. the Bible.

i would assume that your Bible supporters will choose the first option - this woman can't possibly be following the Bible. she's misinterpreted, been brainwashed, and God will take care of her when it's time.

some of the rest of us (including myself) look at it as another example of the hate and intolerance that exists in the minds of the deeply religious.

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[windcatcher 0]

umm, Christians do get criticized, mocked, etc, ALL the time. However, we are commanded to rather rejoice than get discouraged. The Bible encourages us to revel in the fact when we are persecuted on behalf of Christ.

Quote

some of the rest of us (including myself) look at it as another example of the hate and intolerance that exists in the minds of the deeply religious.

I'm assuming by saying "deeply religious" you are talking Christians right? Could you please explain to me what you mean by religious folks being the ones who are full of hate and intolerance?

Please realize that by standing up against much that is wrong in today's world...people will claim me and other Christians are "intolerant." That is not what we are, however, people still choose to see us that way.

If it means I am "intolerant" because I think a spouse should be faithful to his/her partner, by all means call me that.
If it means I am "intolerant" because I see something seriously wrong with pedophiles, molesters, murderers, etc, call me "intolerant."
If it means that I am "intolerant" because I see our society in a state of moral decline, where it's "do whatever you feel like, no matter who gets hurt", you can call me "intolerant."
If it means I am "intolerant" because I see evil increasing in this world, call me "intolerant."

Someone has to make a stand against what is wrong with this world. I am not one of those people who thinks, "yeah, let's just keep living the way we're living. There's no need to change."

Final note: Though I would disagree with all the bad habits of people ( including myself), that does not mean that I would not do my best to love them, help them, and encourage them. Love is about caring about someone enough to tell them that what they're doing is hurting themselves and others around them.

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[Gawain 0]

I question God all the time. I even tell him he's wrong, but then again I don't really know what's on his mind anyway, so. Then again, I don't spend much time looking for, or stating what I think is His plan. He's not so bad I figure. I wish people would stop telling me they "know his plan"...

Wondering if lightning will strike any second...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[stoneycase 0]

Quote

umm, Christians do get criticized, mocked, etc, ALL the time. However, we are commanded to rather rejoice than get discouraged. The Bible encourages us to revel in the fact when we are persecuted on behalf of Christ.

make sense, explains why shirley and fred think they *must* protest at soldiers funerals. the Bible commands them to continue their works...

Quote

I'm assuming by saying "deeply religious" you are talking Christians right?

no, not really. look at our well known fundamentalist enemies. they aren't christians, yet they contain the same types of hate and intolerance.

Quote

Could you please explain to me what you mean by religious folks being the ones who are full of hate and intolerance?

see shirley's video? seen pat robertson on tv? ever watched CBN/TBN? feel free to tear me down, but imho, there are plenty of examples (not limited to christianity) that individuals with deep religious convictions are hateful of those things/people that go against their beliefs and intolerant of alternatives that do not 'mesh' with their existing belief structure. if you want specific examples please let me know. i would be happy to provide past and present for you. it doesn't all need to be 'crusades this' or what have you. i'm talking about events in the last 10-20yrs.

Quote

Please realize that by standing up against much that is wrong in today's world...people will claim me and other Christians are "intolerant." That is not what we are, however, people still choose to see us that way.

true. point taken. you are correct. striking away from the majority, on almost any issue, will get you labeled as something negative. however, the way in which you 'strike away' from the majority plays a big role in that. if the entire world thinks is relatively OK to be gay and you differ from them by protesting at funerals of gay people, or going on tv and making wide sweeping generalizations about the "souls" of homosexuals, then well, don't be surprised if you're labeled intolerant. even if you don't do these things, yet still advocate for the position of those that do, you're probably going to get the label. guilt by association is a b****. it may not be fair, or right, but to have the position that it shouldn't happen - you shouldn't be labeled along with others - is being naieve, imo.

Quote

If it means I am "intolerant" because I think a spouse should be faithful to his/her partner, by all means call me that.
If it means I am "intolerant" because I see something seriously wrong with pedophiles, molesters, murderers, etc, call me "intolerant."

i didn't indicate that. if you misunderstood, i apologize. when i say intolerance i'm going by the dictionary here:

2: unwillingness to recognize and respect differences in opinions or beliefs (keywords recognize and respect, not recognize and criticize, not recognize and try to convert, not recognize and disregard. recognize and respect)

Quote

If it means that I am "intolerant" because I see our society in a state of moral decline, where it's "do whatever you feel like, no matter who gets hurt", you can call me "intolerant."

i'd like to see some significant change as well. though i'm sure you and i (as would others) differ on what that change should be, feel confident in knowing that i'm not out there preaching anarchy, chaos, pi$$ing on your neighbor. but aren't you intolerant if you demand change based on your belief structure, by those who do not endorse your beliefs? are you able to agree to disagree and move on? seems to me, the deeper your convictions, the closer you hold your religious beliefs, the less likely you are to be open to alternatives and comprimises. you end up beleving it should *only* be *one way* and *one way* only. this ends up neglegcting the simple truth that life is complex and full of variety. we can not all be the same.

Quote

If it means I am "intolerant" because I see evil increasing in this world, call me "intolerant."

i'd just call that 'being observant'. seriously. if you thought otherwise (i.e. the world is a wonderful place full of lillies and dandelions) i'd be worried

Quote

Someone has to make a stand against what is wrong with this world. I am not one of those people who thinks, "yeah, let's just keep living the way we're living. There's no need to change."

shirley and fred agree with you. they believe they are doing the same kind of work you are. work they *must* do to save us all. i doubt very seriously you would ever attempt any of the nonsense that the phelps pull on regular basis. for these reasons, i'm sure any activity you choose to bring about this positive change will be far more successful than anything the phelps will ever attempt.

Quote

Final note: Though I would disagree with all the bad habits of people ( including myself), that does not mean that I would not do my best to love them, help them, and encourage them. Love is about caring about someone enough to tell them that what they're doing is hurting themselves and others around them.

and therein lies the issue, or at least the issue i choose to focus on: the 'deeply religious' like fred and shirley and others does much to negate this love and compassion you obviously wish to spread. for all the good works that are done in the name of religion, there is hate and intolerance spread at the *exact* same time. with one hand we see people building homes, churches, schools overseas. we see people risk their own life and limb for the betterment of others. and on the other hand we see people of the same faith and conviction praising the deaths of innocents. we see leaders of religious organizations advocating the murder of national leaders. we see energetic followers of religious organizations protesting children of gay parents.

what am i remember? what should evidence should i base my views of 'deeply religious' individuals on? you do what you can to evaluate everyone individually (at least i hope we do) but at some point you step back and say to yourself (at least i have): the source is the same and there are problems with the source.

you can either discredit the indvidual, in the case of the video: shirley phelps

or you can discredit the source, the Bible. i choose to do both because as i look around i see example after example of hate, intolerance and closed-mindedness being spread by those who hold 'deep religious convictions'. (which is why i'm always amazed and smiling when i see those ads for the 'Church of Christ' where gays, interracial couples, and everyone else are accepted into the church - here's this one lone church out there, with the balls to stand up and say, "I don't care if you are homosexual. To hell with what the rest of the churches are saying." Ads like this, as idiotic as this may sound, do much to help people like myself continue to remember that not all religious people are bad and that there are some deeply religous people out there who just want to *help* and are honestly there to provide compassion to those who need it most. Maybe I just need to watch more tv? lol...)

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[narcimund 0]

Quote

If one person has an idea, another person will disagree. Doesn't mean either one of them are right.

That's damn near brilliant.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Zenister 0]

Quote

Quote

these claims do NOT exclude the Bible, no matter how often Xtians claim it as "God's Sole word"

That's a different topic. I am merely assuming that if the Bible is God's sole word, the Bible instructs people not to guess at God's purposes - it warns all that anybody stating God's purposes has no idea what he or she is talking about, and absolutely cannot know these things.

you are attempting to apply logical reasoning to a collection bronze age mythos??

slow week for futile arguments?

a. "this is God's word".

b. really? you wrote it.

a. shut up heathen dont question the word of God..

b. but you wrote it.. i just saw you... and you are clearly not God,

a. God dictated to me his true prophet

b. is plagiarism a prerequisite for calling yourself a Prophet?...."



Man telling Man not to question God (as delivered by Man) starts with a flawed premise.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

Quote

I question God all the time.

"there is no secret to balance.. you simply learn to feel the waves..." F.H

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[crwtom 0]

Quote

Off topic, but someone once said;

"If there were no God, there would be no Atheists"

It made me think.....

that is badly phrased. A somehwat more accurate version below

"if there were no people concocting notions of super natural beings and
trying to impose them on others - then there would be no Atheists"

Cheers, T

*******************************************************************
Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[JackC 0]

It's funny but all I got from the book of job was god shafted a loyal man for a bet. I mean the devil might be a bastard but at least he's an honest bastard.

But anyway, I think it's every sane persons duty to question god and its motives. If we didn't, we'd still be thinking the earth was flat, stoning adulterers and gays, burning witches and having the annual summer crusade. I means it's all in there, if you take it literally and don't ask too many questions. Plus blasphemy is a victimless crime.

[Akey 0]

Probably not... probably just big headed

[beowulf 1]

Gods were made up by people trying to explain what they didn't understand. They less they understood the more God or Gods had a hand in their lives.


People in general don't feel comfortable not being able to explain things around them. Especially questions like what happens when I die, or why do bad things happen to good people. Reality is that no one really knows the answer to those questions. No one has ever come back from the dead to tell us what happens. Bad things happen to good people just like good things happen to bad people, it's nothing personal. Being a good person doesn't exclude you from ever having something bad happening to you. That is part of the human experience. Life is how you react to it.