Finally saw "The Passion of the Christ"...

[lurch 0]

Snort...
That is the funniest thing I've seen anyone say in a month.

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[stevebabin 0]

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How much more is your eternal soul worth?

Prove to me that I've got a soul and I'll tell you what it's worth.

No kool-aid for me, thanks.

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[JackC 0]

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So bow up, get yourself a lawyer, and go collect your money if you've got all the answers you need from evolution. He's just a quack. Go take his money. It's a real offer.

It's not a real offer. Read the small print.

[pajarito 0]

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Prove to me that I've got a soul and I'll tell you what it's worth.

C.S. Lewis gave an example in his book “Mere Christianity” describing the difference between humans and the animals with regard to morality. He was speaking of the idea that our morality originates entirely from a “herd instinct” which developed over time instead of being imprinted on our hearts by God from the time we were born. He said:

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Feeling a desire to help is quite different from feeling that you aught to help whether you want to or not. Supposing you hear a cry for help from a man in danger. You will probably feel two desires – one a desire to give help (due to your herd instinct), the other a desire to keep out of danger (due to the instinct for self-preservation). But you will find inside you, in addition to these two impulses, a third thing which tells you that you ought to follow the impulse to help, and suppress the impulse to run away. Now this thing that judges between two instincts, that decides which should be encouraged, cannot itself be either of them. You might as well say that the sheet of music which tells you, at a given moment, to play one note on the piano and not another, is itself one of the notes on the keyboard. The Moral Law tells us the tune we have to play: our instincts are merely the keys.”

I say that our conscious is a primary indicator that we possess a soul. The knowledge of right and wrong (e.g. sheet of music) has been imprinted on our hearts by God from the beginning. Whether we choose to do what we ought to do is a different matter. However, given the example above, I don’t think it is logical to assume that this conscious developed by some means of evolution. I think it gives us the ability to sense that we will continue on after our physical bodies die (e.g. soul).

[Dolph 0]

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However, he is a just judge and must punish my crime whether he likes me or not. Just before passing sentence, someone I don't even know walks in and pays my fine in full. The judge is then able to let me go because justice has been served.

The following is not directed at your Pajarito; see the use of "you" in generic terms.

Wondering aloud: isn't that just morally utterly reprehensible, a total degeneration of personal responsibility and an ethical cop-out?

The only thing it achieves it that someone GUILTY goes free. At the cost of an innocent. Whether that innocent accepts that or not doesn't matter. The facts remain. The guilty dude is just as guilty, only now he doesn't have to face the consequences of being such an ass.

You get away with all your misdeeds and can sit there smugly grinning in heaven. The only thing you have to do is let this dude take the fall for all your failings, for your weaknesses, for your lack of character, determination and control.

Of course he's already paid the price, so you could say "why not? It ain't like they're gonna crucify 'im again and we might as well milk it for what it's worth". A very pragmatic attitude, but not one worthy of Jesus or the Dalai Lama. As a sidenote, those two are probably the two individuals I'd most want to hang around for a bit, just so this post isn't entirely a-religious :).

I don't do what I do to gain a reward (heaven) or to avoid being punished (hell). My actions are caused by what I believe is right, by failing to be strong enough to do what is right or by a general I-don't-give-a-shit apathy or interest/annoyance/anger etc.

If I could talk to the God deity, I'd ask him to consider giving people a hard time about having been inconsiderate dumb selfish morons in life. Give 'em a chance to fix things and if that works out, give the dudes another shot.

[Dolph 0]

For being a divinely imprinted sheet of music it's surprisingly easy to suppress, adapt, modify and mold to fit the current sociological conditions.

God is into Open Source. I like 'im more and more.

[StreetScooby 5]

I saw it. The guy could have walked away at any of multiple times, and he chose not to. Must have been flat crazy.

We are all engines of karma

[stevebabin 0]

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I say that our conscious

I assume you mean conscience.
What society views as "morality" is simply learned behavior. It must be taught.
Even if it was instinctive, I've seen male birds fake injury and endanger themselves in order to draw a predator away from it's young. Simple preservation of the species. In your example this would be evidence of a soul.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

C.S. Lewis was not objective from a scientific standpiont. He obviously had an agenda. In science, the objective is to find the truth. C.S lewis' objective was not to find the truth, it was converting people to his belief system. While they are interesting stories I would take what he said with a grain of salt.

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[pajarito 0]

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Wondering aloud: isn't that just morally utterly reprehensible, a total degeneration of personal responsibility and an ethical cop-out?

The only thing it achieves it that someone GUILTY goes free. At the cost of an innocent. Whether that innocent accepts that or not doesn't matter. The facts remain. The guilty dude is just as guilty, only now he doesn't have to face the consequences of being such an ass.

You get away with all your misdeeds and can sit there smugly grinning in heaven. The only thing you have to do is let this dude take the fall for all your failings, for your weaknesses, for your lack of character, determination and control.

Wait. Here's the rest of the story. It's not just a matter of believing in Jesus. Many believe in Jesus but don't follow him (that includes many who sit in church every Sunday). Satan himself “believes” in Jesus. You can't just take a "get out of jail free card" and continue to sin without worrying about repercussion. Doesn't work that way. If one continues in a pattern of sin, he/she needs to seriously consider whether their conversion was sincere in the first place. What is required is that one must repent of their sin and trust in Jesus as their Lord and savior (born again of the spirit). Once that happens (true repentance in the heart), Jesus gives you a new heart with new desires. You will be compelled to do good and attempt to follow God's moral law the best you can. Doesn't mean you won't sin anymore. You're still human with a selfish nature which is now in a process of change. Just means you don't take pleasure in it and try not to. It's the difference between floating down the river of sin or swimming against the current. From then on, the good works you do is representative of Christ living in you and not of yourself.

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If I could talk to the God deity, I'd ask him to consider giving people a hard time about having been inconsiderate dumb selfish morons in life. Give 'em a chance to fix things and if that works out, give the dudes another shot.

You’ve been given a lifetime of second chances. Problem is you don’t know how long your lifetime will be. You could die on your next jump and it will be too late.

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And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.
Hebrews 9:27

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Matthew 24:36-44

[pajarito 0]

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I say that our conscious

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I assume you mean conscience.
Sorry, I don't buy it.

Yep. You got me on that one.
Never said I could spell very well.

[freethefly 6]

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[/url]http://www.kent-hovind.com/[url]

Yup, he's a quack....
I think I hear the same laughter as Sarah....

So bow up, get yourself a lawyer, and go collect your money if you've got all the answers you need from evolution. He's just a quack. Go take his money. It's a real offer.

No matter what rock-solid proof one may have, this quack would never pay up.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[pajarito 0]

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What society views as "morality" is simply learned behavior. It must be taught.
Even if it was instinctive, I've seen male birds fake injury and endanger themselves in order to draw a predator away from it's young. Simple preservation of the species. In your example this would be evidence of a soul.

The bird is simply trying to preserve its mate in order to propogate his genes. That is most definitely an instinct. My example included a person you don't even know and your desire to help that person. There is also danger to your own life in doing so and your own self-preservation kicks in. Something inside you, however, makes you suppress those instincts and do what is right. That's your conscience. Kind of like heroism in battle. You don't teach that.

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C.S. Lewis was not objective from a scientific standpiont. He obviously had an agenda. In science, the objective is to find the truth. C.S lewis' objective was not to find the truth, it was converting people to his belief system. While they are interesting stories I would take what he said with a grain of salt.

The "discredit the author" tactic seems to be popular here. C.S. Lewis was a very objective and logical thinker. He used to be an atheist. Just because he's now a Christian, he's now got "an agenda."

[pajarito 0]

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No matter what rock-solid proof one may have, this quack would never pay up.

That's just it. There is no "rock-solid" proof yet people worship it like a religion. If there was, however, he'd have to pay up. You'd win if you took it to court. It's a contract.

Leaving for a few hours. Not ignoring anyone.

Out!

[JackC 0]

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No matter what rock-solid proof one may have, this quack would never pay up.

That's just it. There is no "rock-solid" proof yet people worship it like a religion. If there was, however, he'd have to pay up. You'd win if you took it to court. It's a contract.

"Dr Dino" has set the bar to far out of reality, it is impossible to win his prize.

In Hovind's words:

When I use the word evolution, I am not referring to the minor variations found in all of the various life forms (microevolution). I am referring to the general theory of evolution which believes these five major events took place without God:
1. Time, space, and matter came into existence by themselves.
2. Planets and stars formed from space dust.
3. Matter created life by itself.
4. Early life-forms learned to reproduce themselves.
5. Major changes occurred between these diverse life forms (i.e., fish changed to amphibians, amphibians changed to reptiles, and reptiles changed to birds or mammals).

You can't win because Hovind doesn't even understand the science he's trying to debunk. He might as well be asking for proof that Captain Kirk really did have Klingons on the starboard bow. It would make as much sense.

And this red herring of worshiping science like a religion is bullshit of the same ilk as the macro-evolution fallacy. The irony of religious folk talking about proof and then pulling this one out of the hat if just amazing. It would be hilarious if it wasn't for that fact that kids have to grow up with this gibberish.

[Dolph 0]

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It's the difference between floating down the river of sin or swimming against the current. From then on, the good works you do is representative of Christ living in you and not of yourself.

While I appreciate the difference, actions speak louder than words. The road to hell is, as they say, paved with good intentions.

In physical life, say skydiving as a good example - you're spanked for making mistakes. Your intentions may be the best in the world but it won't help you if you manage to get the bridle wrapped a few times around your neck as the main deploys.

In the metaphysical Christian world, there is divine intervention preventing your from experiencing the consequences of your actions. As long as your intentions were good and honest, you're home free. Of course, this would probably mean heaven would be very crowded (most people I know are good people), so there's the added twist that you gotta be down with the dude that got you out of the dumb stuff you pulled - or else.

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You’ve been given a lifetime of second chances. Problem is you don’t know how long your lifetime will be. You could die on your next jump and it will be too late.

No, I've been given one shot at life. I intend to go for it. Life is the big chance - micro choices within it are secondary. With so many competing organised religions to choose between, it's a hard one for someone who's not been more or less influenced by whatever prevailing religion exists in the immediate surroundings. One religion excludes the other. I go to hell seven times for each time I reach heaven, no matter my choice. Statistically speaking, it's a pretty lousy shot.

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The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

What's the deal here? Why must we crawl like earthworms to satisfy this all powerful deity? It does not make sense. For a flawed god, like one from Asatru, such behaviour would be understandable. For an all loving, all knowing entity, it simply makes no sense whatsoever. Be humble - yes, understandable. Crawl like an unworthy maggot for having played with the chess pieces given - that game is rigged

I do not fear the benevolent and omniscient because those two qualities ensures a just judgement. A being that requires me to shame myself to such a degree has neither.

[pajarito 0]

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You can't win because Hovind doesn't even understand the science he's trying to debunk. He might as well be asking for proof that Captain Kirk really did have Klingons on the starboard bow. It would make as much sense.

I think he understands the science just fine. I have no idea what you're talking about with the Captain Kirk thing. If you can't account for any of which you listed above, natural selection has real problems. The fossil record doesn't support it, there is no missing link, there is no first cause. That's got nothing to do with a species adapting to its enviroment such as bird beaks changing length or mutation of viruses or bacteria. You say I have to have faith to believe what I believe. That's true. There is an element of faith although it's not blind faith. I say believers in this theory also must rely on a big chunk of faith. They just don't want to admit it because doesn't fit well with science.

[JackC 0]

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I think he understands the science just fine.

I don't think he does. Take the first thing on his list for example:

1. Time, space, and matter came into existence by themselves.

How can you prove this? Asking what lit the fuse to start the Big Bang is not a question science can answer since what was before the beggining of time is a meaningless question. If as you suggest, he knows exactly what science can and can't do, then he's deliberatelly misrepresenting the facts and that's pretty low.

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I have no idea what you're talking about with the Captain Kirk thing.

You can't prove that fiction is fact. His version of the science doesn't match what's published in the literature. Proving the truth of stuff we already know to be false is impossible.

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If you can't account for any of which you listed above, natural selection has real problems. The fossil record doesn't support it, there is no missing link, there is no first cause. That's got nothing to do with a species adapting to its enviroment such as bird beaks changing length or mutation of viruses or bacteria.

First, big bang cosmology and stellar evolution is a totally different set of subjects to Natural Selection. Be sure you don't get them all mixed up because it looks like you have. For a good overview of evolutionary biology and natural selection I'd suggest you read The Blind Watchmaker. In my opinion though, pop science is often guilty of leading the reader astray. If you don't actually do the science, just reading the coffee table version will often mean you get the wrong end of the stick.

Regarding the fossil record, missing links are found on a semi-regular basis. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/0413_060413_evolution.html Just because we haven't got the complete set of monkeys-to-men playing cards, doesn't mean the theory is scrap.

From my perspective (and the scientific establishement) the whole Big Bang through Primordial Soup through RNA World Hypothesis through biological evolution and natural selection over billions of years is quite plausible, even probable and is backed up by mountains of evidence. Godidit has no such virtue.

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You say I have to have faith to believe what I believe. That's true. There is an element of faith although it's not blind faith. I say believers in this theory also must rely on a big chunk of faith. They just don't want to admit it because doesn't fit well with science.

You're right in as much as I have faith that most scientists have done their work correctly and that the peer review process is fair and self-correcting. However if I wanted to, I could take every single scientific theory and trace it back all the way back through first principles, re-do all the experiments and check if I really thought it was correct. This would probably take many centuries for one person to complete and I'm way to lazy for that so I won't bother. Now how do I do that with God? I can't go back in time and poke Jesus a bit, I can't do an experiment to test Gods properties, I can't check one single thing. At least I can check to see if my scientific faith is warranted if I want to, you can't test yours for shit. There's the bit that's blind. 'Cept we don't share the same definition of faith now do we?

[pajarito 0]

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Regarding the fossil record, missing links are found on a semi-regular basis. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...60413_evolution.html Just because we haven't got the complete set of monkeys-to-men playing cards, doesn't mean the theory is scrap.

Lucy - Nearly all experts agree Lucy was just a 3 foot tall chimpanzee.

Heidelberg Man - Built from a jawbone that was conceeded by many to be quite human.

Nebraska Man - Scientifically built up from one tooth, later found to be the tooth of an extinct pig.

Piltdown Man - The jawbone turned out to belong to a modern ape.

Peking Man - Supposedly 500,000 years old, but all evidence has disappeared.

Neanderthal Man - At the International Cogress of Zoology (1958) Dr. A.J.E. Cave said his examination showed that this famous skeleton found in France over 50 years ago is that of an old man who suffered from arthritis.

New Guinea Man - Dates way back to 1970. This species has been found in the region just north of Australia.

Cro-Magnon Man - One of hte earliest and best established fossils is at least equal in physique and brain capacity to modern man...so what's the difference?

[stevebabin 0]

Evolution is just one of the latest scientific revelations that the church doesn't want you to believe because it feels threatened by the truth. If they admit that it's the truth(in agreement with the mountain of overwhelming evidence)then once again, people will realise that what the church expects you to believe is a crock. There is a long history of the church being on the wrong side of things when the truth becomes known.
If we took what the church has taught as fact we would still believe the world is flat and the center of the universe.

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[pajarito 0]

1. Time, space, and matter came into existence by themselves.

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How can you prove this? Asking what lit the fuse to start the Big Bang is not a question science can answer since what was before the beggining of time is a meaningless question.

We sure are spending an awful lot of money trying to figure out the origins of the universe for it to be a "meaningless question." You are correct that it is not a question that science can answer. It's not a concept that can rationally even be brought up without God. Every natural phenomena has a starting point. The matter and energy had to come from somewhere. Evolution is all about the physical world controlling itself. Even if it was how it is said to have happened, something had to start the process. How logical is it to "ass-ume" that "In the beginning.....dirt?

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If as you suggest, he knows exactly what science can and can't do, then he's deliberatelly misrepresenting the facts and that's pretty low.

That's not what I said. I meant that he understands natural selection and that his questions are valid even if unprovable. It's all in what you want to put your "faith" in. That includes "faith in evolution."

[ernokaikkonen 0]

Are you saying that there is no evidence linking early hominid fossils to modern humans?

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Lucy - Nearly all experts agree Lucy was just a 3 foot tall chimpanzee.

That's the first time I've heard of that. Can I get a quote? Australopithecus afarensis was probably about as far from a chimpanzee as it was from a modern human.

Take a quick look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution. There's a chart that shows the human family tree. There are no huge gaps between "Lucy" and Homo Sapiens.

[pajarito 0]

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Evolution is just one of the latest scientific revelations that the church doesn't want you to believe because it feels threatened by the truth.

Evolution is just one of the latest scientific revelations (I use the term loosely) that the secular world wants you to believe because it feels threatened by the truth.

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If they admit that it's the truth(in agreement with the mountain of overwhelming evidence)then once again, people will realise that what the church expects you to believe is a crock.

If there was a "mountain of overwhelming evidence", we wouldn't be having this conversation.

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There is a long history of the church being on the wrong side of things when the truth becomes known.

Maybe so, but that is irrelevant. What a church may teach may or may not come from the authoritative source which is the Bible. If it doesn't, then they may not be correct.

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If we took what the church has taught as fact we would still believe the world is flat and the center of the universe.

You rely on God's word. Not "the Church" per se. If whatever church a person attends doesn't teach the word of God which is revealed in the Bible, that person might aught to find someplace else to go.

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The Bible Reveals that the Earth is Round

The Scriptures tell us that the earth is round:
"It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22).

The word translated "circle" here is the Hebrew word chuwg, which is also translated "circuit" or "compass" (depending on the context). That is, it indicates something spherical, rounded, or arched not something that is flat or square. The book of Isaiah was written sometime between 740 and 680 B.C. This is at least 300 years before Aristotle suggested, in his book On the Heavens, that the earth might be a sphere. It was another 2,000 years later (at a time when science believed that the earth was flat) that the Scriptures inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world.

[pajarito 0]

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Australopithecus afarensis was probably about as far from a chimpanzee as it was from a modern human.

If it was really Australopithecus afarensis. I believe there were some questions with regard to this (e.g. bones that were taken from other locations to make what they wanted to).

[stevebabin 0]

Keep tithing, Pajarito........

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[pajarito 0]

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Keep tithing, Pajarito........

I do.

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No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
Matthew 6:24

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
Mark 10:25

Every man according as he purposes in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loves a cheerful giver.
2 Corinthians 9:7

Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed me. But you say, How have we robbed you? In tithes and offerings. You are cursed with a curse: for you have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house, and prove me now herewith, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Malachi 3:8-10

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