flag display, national anthem, etc.

[SpeedRacer 1]

OK, do you remove your hat during the National Anthem?

Last 4th of July celebration in my town there were these Marines in dress uniform standing in formation behind the guy singing the National Anthem. And the Marines left their white hats on.

on another note: officially the flag is not supposed to be used as an article of clothing. But you see people with T-shirts & caps with the flag on them. It would seem to me that these people are wearing the picture of the flag with the best of intentions, even if they aren't strictly following the letter of the law.

what do you all think, (assuming you give a flying-whatever)?

Speed Racer
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[wmw999 2,121]

It bugs the heck out of me to see a tattered flag being flown, or one in the rain, because the owner is too cheap or too lazy to do it right.

That said, flags on hats and T-shirts bug me more if they're worn with a "fuck you" or a "I'm more patriotic than you" attitude (or saying on them). Using flag designs on something that's not quite flaggish is kind of wrong to me, too (those woven-flag look fabrics). But not nearly as tacky as a worn-out old flag flying.

I'm a girl; we don't take our hats off. But I don't put my hand over my heart for the national anthem generally.

I grew up in Brazil; I can distinctly remember my third-grade teacher holding out Americans as an example of how to treat a national flag and anthem with respect -- she said they ALWAYS stand for the anthem, and respect the flag. Maybe that's where I got it from.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[quade 3]

I'm guessing that if the National Anthem is playing, whatever the hell the Marines in uniform are doing at the time is what was DRILLED into their heads during bootcamp. My guess is that if outdoors, you keep your hat on, stand at attention and salute.

As for a flag being an article of clothing . . .

Unless it WAS a flag that was turned into an article of clothing, then it's not a flag being used as an article of clothing.

In other words, just because something is red, white and blue doesn't make it a flag.

Hell, most "flags" you see flying on people's houses and used during demos aren't technically "flags" according to the Congressional and Executive definitions. For instance anything that doesn't have the aspect ratio of 19:10 isn't and most "flags" sold in stores are 5:3.

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/more/10834.htm

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Rebecca 0]

I stand and cover my heart when the anthem is played/performed. Always. And I shoot nasty looks at people during concerts or sporting events if they can't stand up and shut the fuck up for 2 minutes to show respect.

Technically Quade, I think anything being worn, other than a proper flag pin, that represents the red, white and blue Stars and Bars is an etiquette breach, but I'm with Wendy. As long as it's worn with pride and respect, it's cool.

Improper flag flying bugs the daylights out of me. I'd rather you not fly a flag at all than do it wrong. It's not that hard.

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[Andy9o8 0]

I remember during the Vietnam War era, people were (selectively!) prosecuted for desecration of the flag for wearing a flag or a flag-design on their clothing. Sparked a real debate on what is and is not a flag, what is and is not desecration, whether anti-desecration laws conflict with the First Amendment, etc. Anyhow that's my trip down memory lane.

When I'm at a ball game & the anthem is played, I stand & hold my hand over my heart. My US Marine father taught me to respect and salute the flag, and I do. I don't wear hats, but if I was, and everyone else removed their hat during the anthem, I imagine I would, too. BTW, it pisses me off, too, when I see someone letting their flag get shabby or rained on.

[SpeedRacer 1]

I looked at the link Quade posted & they have the rules of the flag posted there. Strictly according to the rules, you're not supposed to put the flag on things. And you can't portray it as part of an advertisement.

The rules also make clear that they are intended to be followed voluntarily, and there is no penalty for violating them. So that is why people will still put the flag on advertisements, t-shirts, etc.

Speed Racer
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[livendive 8]

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Last 4th of July celebration in my town there were these Marines in dress uniform standing in formation behind the guy singing the National Anthem. And the Marines left their white hats on.

Only civilians should remove covers (hats) and place their right hand over their heart ,with the cover at their left shoulder if applicable. Servicemen in uniform should salute as appropriate. This salute can vary based on branch, location (indoors/outdoors), whether they are in formation, what they might have in their hands (e.g. bugle, rifle, other flags) The Marines you're talking about were a color guard, even if they didn't have colors in their immediate proximity to guard. In many cases, color guards are to stand at attention and not participate in the ongoing ceremony (e.g. the pledge or anthem). The tradition is mostly based on them being prepared to protect the colors from touching the ground.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[jlkskycam 0]

I don't usually wear hats and while I would have no problem taking it off for the anthem, if anyone got into a snit because I chose not to, screw e'm - I'm free to wear or not wear whatever I feel like, whenever I feel like. Flags as an article of clothing I always thought was kinda cheesy but if individuals wanna do it, more power to 'em - it's all about freedom in my opinion. It does strike me as ironic that it seems sometimes the people who would choose to wear a combination of elements representing a flag would get bent out of shape over other people having the freedom to take similar elements and destroy them, to the point of limiting their freedom to do so. Ironic in the sense that in my opinion, wearing flag stuff and destroying flag stuff is, when you get down to it, just posturing. One of the nice things in this country - you're free to posture as you will, as well as laud or condemn it. Some people might not buy into or appreciate this but when it comes to the National Anthem, I do NOT put my hand over my heart - simply because I am free to not do it and besides, I know where my heart is during the anthem.

One thing that has always annoyed me was beat up flags on cars, flags at night, flags out in the rain, or just flags displayed wrong. In my opinion, people who feel they wanna display the flag, and nothing wrong with displaying the flag, should take the time to get their shit together and do it right. Anything less just makes me think they're posturing. I've seen giant flags displayed at night, in the rain, and over American car dealerships, among other places, and while I could give the benefit of the doubt that something patriotic was trying to be inferred by the display, it just strikes me as rank posturing, pandering to potential customers. You wanna dispaly a flag - go for it - do it right or not at all.

[billvon 2,396]

>One thing that has always annoyed me was beat up flags on cars . . .

My favorite are the bumper stickers with a US flag on it and the statement "these colors don't run" - with the red faded to light pink.

[quade 3]

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Technically Quade, I think anything being worn, other than a proper flag pin, that represents the red, white and blue Stars and Bars is an etiquette breach, but I'm with Wendy. As long as it's worn with pride and respect, it's cool.

This kind of goes back to a very old argument of mine though and while I'll agree with you in principle of how things "ought" to be respected, "A" flag is not "The" flag.

In other words, it's only a symbol and as such I'd defend a person's right to also burn it.

As far as I'm concerned, "The" Consititution is greater than "A" symbol of it.

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Improper flag flying bugs the daylights out of me. I'd rather you not fly a flag at all than do it wrong. It's not that hard.

Completely agree except for specific cases. For instance, I personally would like to see the flag that was salvaged from the rubble of the World Trade Center be the first one raised when they dedicate the new building. Oh yeah, and we have a pretty tattered one hanging in the Smithsonian I kind of like. I've seen that one a few times.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Hawkins121 0]

If I see a guy still wearing his hat during the national anthem I will remove it for him.

I do that in nice restaraunts too.

[quade 3]

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If I see a guy still wearing his hat during the national anthem I will remove it for him.

For your own health and safety, I wouldn't suggest doing that to the Marines in question.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[nanook 1]

[patting on the head] No you dont[/patting on the head]

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[jlkskycam 0]

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If I see a guy still wearing his hat during the national anthem I will remove it for him.

I do that in nice restaraunts too.

Lemme get this straight - you see someone, a total stranger, wearing a hat in certain circumstances (restaurants & anthem singings" and you will, without introduction, warning, request, or even suggestion, remove that person's hat? While I can apprecaite the emotion that would bring you to perpetrate such behaviour, it doesn't make it right. People are free to wear shit on their heads, wherever and whenever, and there is no law, only custom, which would deny such activity in restaurants and at anthem singings, but there are certainly laws which deny individuals from taking something from someone else without their permission, anywhere and anytime. It comes down to freedom and the rule of law. Every person is the arbiter of what is their own personal freedom and no one has the right to disturb someone else's property over anything less than a violation of law or issues of safety for themselves and/or loved one. Ask them? Sure. Do it for them? Reverance for custom does not afford you the right.

[Richards 0]

I don't wear a hat but if I did I would remove it. I always do stand. With respect to those who don't I have resigned myself to the fact that some people are not capable of seeing anything outside their myopic "I have my rights to not show respect" world. I don't have the energy to beat it into them, but I too get pushed over the edge when people won't even stfu during the anthem, as they could at least respect that it does still matter to some of us.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[Hawkins121 0]

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If I see a guy still wearing his hat during the national anthem I will remove it for him.

For your own health and safety, I wouldn't suggest doing that to the Marines in question.

While in uniform you are supposed to keep your cover on. I didnt mean those guys.

[mnealtx 0]

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she said they ALWAYS stand for the anthem, and respect the flag. Maybe that's where I got it from.

Wendy W.

Too damn bad that's not true anymore....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Andy9o8 0]

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If I see a guy still wearing his hat during the national anthem I will remove it for him.

I do that in nice restaraunts too.

Really?
Touching a stranger without his permission (absent some exigency) is generally considered to be aggressively anti-social. I hope for your own sake you're one tough dude.
In most US jurisdictions, it's not only a civil tort (battery) for which you can get sued, but also a criminal offense for which you can be prosecuted.

[kallend 1,623]

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If I see a guy still wearing his hat during the national anthem I will remove it for him.

I do that in nice restaraunts too.

Official member of the Good Manners Police, are you?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

I think we should respect any country's National Anthem. I will stand and if I know the words I sing along with any country's anthem when played at an event I attend.

I don't think it needs to be legislated, however. You cannot enforce respect.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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I think we should respect any country's National Anthem. I will stand and if I know the words I sing along with any country's anthem when played at an event I attend.

Depending on how good you sing that might be respectful or just the opposite. I'll take your word on it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,623]

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I think we should respect any country's National Anthem. I will stand and if I know the words I sing along with any country's anthem when played at an event I attend.

Depending on how good you sing that might be respectful or just the opposite. I'll take your word on it.

I used to be a choirboy. But that was 48 years ago.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Plucky 0]

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I always do stand. With respect to those who don't I have resigned myself to the fact that some people are not capable of seeing anything outside their myopic "I have my rights to not show respect" world. I don't have the energy to beat it into them

Out of interest, would you expect foreigners to stand and take their hats off too? I would expect visitors in my country to keep quiet while my anthem's playing, but stand and put their hand on their heart? ..

[Richards 0]

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Out of interest, would you expect foreigners to stand and take their hats off too? I would expect visitors in my country to keep quiet while my anthem's playing, but stand and put their hand on their heart?

Of course. I am Canadian and I always stand and show both anthems equal respect. It shows a lack of class to do otherwise.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[pajarito 0]

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OK, do you remove your hat during the National Anthem?

Military do not remove their hats. They salute either with the hand or their rifle. The hat is part of the uniform.