War in the Iraq, At what point do people think it should end?

[larskjargaard 0]

22 responses and nobody even attempted to answer the question before them. I'm starting to think that on S.C. a right winger is someone who critisizes a left wingers posts and a left winger is one who critisizes a right wingers post. perhaps I need only rephrase my question and try again. If you care about Iraq's people or not there are other things to consider. just another example - the worlds image of the U.S. consider how that can change or the blows it has taken. I'm not asking for a discussion about national image. I want to read a candid and frank reply from the right of the spectrum. If you care about what happens in Iraq or not what would cause a supporter of the war to withdraw that support?

[Michele 1]

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what would cause a supporter of the war to withdraw that support?

That's a really hard question to answer, at least for me. Perhaps that's why you haven't gotten salient responses.

I think if we're still in active warfare in 10 years, I'd think it would be time to bring home our service personnel. But other than that, I don't know. Sorry.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[dontbounce 0]

Let's give up when we get to 2,000 dead American soldiers. Oh wait, we are at 2,500 now...

I say we pull them out now (by Friday night) "vietnam style" and "Oops, sorry my mistake" to the Iraqis. Screw them anyway. What have they done for us lately? Let them devolve into civil war. Maybe if we turn Iraq into a big experiment in "survival of the fittest" we can finally prove to the bible thumpers that "Natural Selection" and "Darwinism" aren't just crazy ideas dreamed up by a devil worshipper. They work consistently in real world scenarios...

When to leave? It really depends on who you ask... People are so politically polarized (here is the SC especially) that it becomes a pissing contest between the reds and the blues. Since the GOP is incapable of admitting that they made a mistake, I wouldn't look for a draw down any time soon.

The turning point for me personally was when I found out that Bush Inc. intended to attack Iraq for years before 9/11, and 9/11 (mixed with a healthy dose of fear) was just the excuse he needed to sell it to the gullible American public. They knew all along that there was no WMD, and Cheney pushed and pushed to try to sell this war. He went to the CIA like 20 times trying to establish a connection between 9/11 and Iraq. He couldn't. He tried to make Saddam appear much more dangerous than he really was (weak intel on aluminum tubes, lying about Saddam buying uranium from niger). It was all a fabrication. From day 1.

For those of you that don't beleive everything I say, do some research on "the project for a new american century" a.k.a. "PNAC" and "the downing street memo". Check your facts on the "cia leak", "yellowcake uranium from niger". While your at at, find out much much money Halliburton (Cheney was the CEO a few years ago, and still gets a paycheck from them today) has made in Iraq contracts since the war started (heres a hint: $12,400,000,000.00, yes $12 Billion, 400 million dollars)

By the time this became known (to me), we had already lost more than 1,000 soldiers.

Beleive it or not, I AM NOT an overly political person. I rise to the occasion. Once we have dubya and his criminal cronies gone, I will resume my life as a meek and disinterested independent.


And for you GOP retards that want to jump in and try to pick apart my argument or attack me personally, go ahead. You could measure how much I care about what you think in "nano-give-a-shits."

Everybody is a war-mongering republican till they are the one getting shot at (or actually serving in the military). But when that first bullet goes wizzing past your ear, your suddenly a
"diplomat", "war is not the answer"... What a joke.

Cheers,

[billvon 2,380]

> For you to lump everyone who cares about their countryman
>before another country's citizens as bad, immoral, lacking class/sensitivity,
> or not understanding that there is a reason some people hate us...
>well, that's just not up to your abilities.

Now, Michele, you know I didn't say anything like that. Ah well. You are a smart person, and I am sure you can intentionally misunderstand everything I say in very creative ways, so I will leave you to it. Have a good night.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Everybody is a war-mongering republican till they are the one getting shot at (or actually serving in the military). But when that first bullet goes wizzing past your ear, your suddenly a
"diplomat", "war is not the answer"... What a joke.

Cheers,

[dontbounce 0]

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We went in to effect a regime change. To LIBERATE the Iraqi people.

No. I thought we went to war in Iraq because Saddam was developing Nuclear weapons? The secretary of state Condolleza Rice said "we don't want the next warning to be a mushroom cloud"... Colin Powel said "mushroom cloud", Rumsfeld said "Mushroom cloud" and George Bush said "He is buying Uranium from Niger" (which was later proven by Joe Wilsons OP-ED in the New York Times to be a bald faced lie).

We went to war to stop Saddam from developing Weapons of Mass Destruction. Remember? That BS about "liberating the people from tyrrany" was some shit Carl Rove thought of right before they gave up the hunt for WMD...

Remember?? The change in Rhetoric was subtle, but it was there...

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Could it be that Iraq will make a very handy second front when it comes to invading the latest identified major oil producer supporter of international terrorism (Iran)?

Do you have proof that they are supporting terrorism? Or is that what you heard on the TV? If we want to go after the real sponsors of Terrorism, lets take over Saudi Arabia... Before we commit more troops, I would like to see some Photos, some real evidence. The whole "Trust me" thing didn't work out so well last time... Christ, at least I hope they make a PLAN this time.

They can turn the whole middle east into the next State of the Union "East Texas" for all I care... Just have a real plan, and tell the American people the truth... Thats all I ask for.

[dontbounce 0]

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Everybody is a war-mongering republican till they are the one getting shot at (or actually serving in the military). But when that first bullet goes wizzing past your ear, your suddenly a
"diplomat", "war is not the answer"... What a joke.

Cheers,

Gee thanks for speaking for me...

ALL is not the word you might have chosen when you realized there are many of us who have served and have been shot at...

so please on that last quote don't include me ok?

I would really appreciate that

[warpedskydiver 0]

Thanks it actually means something

[racer42 0]

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i don't care about dead iraqi citizens count. we're not blowing them up, they're blowing themselves up.

Then why, pray tell, are we there?

So we can take the oil.

As i'm sure you are aware, It would have been much cheaper and rational on so many levels to have paid full retail for Iraqs oil than to have taken it by invasion. Besides we get most of our oil from Venezuela and other countries.

I have yet to fully understand the rationale for this most avoidable conflict.

Thankfully, some people are beginning to see through the pathetic veil of proganda nonsense. It is my opinion that a draw down will begin within the next year. The mid term elections are proving to be a deciding factor.

This Administration has involved us in the phoniest war since 1898. It has committed OUR soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines to a war with no political goals and no visible end and it serves no national defense purpose.

No one at home has had to sacrifice anything of significance, save the families and friends of those killed or injured in this war. Their sacrifice will linger for many years to come.

I think we are rapidly approaching the"enough is enough" point.

This is not a "good war". This is arrogance unbridled.

L.A.S.T. #24
Co-Founder Biscuit Brothers Freefly Team
Electric Toaster #3
Co-Founder Team Non Sequitor
Co-Founder Team Happy Sock

[freeryde13 0]

one day as the world gets smaller and smaller people will see not countries but people . I'm not a religion nut but God doesn't see countries if that means anything to you..... and the universe doesn't see countries either... or race . It's all playground shit....kids not sharing and bullying and picking on each other

feeling guilt isn't a bad thing if it makes some one grow and/or enlightens .

_________________________________________

people see me as a challenge to their balance

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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So knock it off with the guilt and the implied deservedness of terrorist/insurgent attacks.

Hey Michelle ... many of us here know that you're a valuable contributor to these forums and we like to hear what you have to say. But don't ever forget that America (against the opinions of much of the world) decided to invade a sovereign country with it's military might, over throw the government and install it's own preferred government. What would you do if a foreign military invaded and occupied your country? So I still don’t understand why some people don’t understand why the Iraqis are fighting back. People need to walk a mile in the other guy’s shoes before they are so quick judge.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[tbrown 26]

All we have to do is construct a fantasy scenario for declaring victory. Which shouldn't be too hard, since we constructed a fantasy scenario for invading that shithole of a country in the first place.

We're handing over Abu Ghraib prison to the Iraqis next month, so they can take over the torture and abuse and probably do it better than us & certainly without any qualms. They've already replaced Saddam's death squads with Shiite death squads, so there's already a track record.

Our biggest concern is not to be seen "cutting and running". But did we EVER intend to stay forever. I dunno, maybe we did, but I sure hope not. We need to accentuate the positive, call the glass half full and get the fuck out of there.

Then a free and democratic Iraq can go on killing each other with happy abandon, since that's all they seem capable of doing anyway.

Besides, the less Moslems in the world, the better for the rest of us.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[mnealtx 0]

Thanks, Michelle - as is your usual way, you've made the point much more clearly than I could.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Binkus 0]

( 10,000 dead US kids)

They are US soilders not KIDS. It is there choice and there resposibilty to fight and with this brings death. Its part of life. I get tired of people always trying to use the number of american dead as an excuse against fighting. That is the soilders choice and there responsibilty. If the loss of an american soiders can posibly prevent the loss of a american civillian than they are doing there Job. Dieing comes with there line of work it was there choice. And yes I am in the millitary, and get deployed every year. Ive seen good people die and I feel for there familys but it is still a choice that we made.

[rehmwa 2]

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Could it be that Iraq will make a very handy second front when it comes to invading the latest identified major oil producer supporter of international terrorism (Iran)?

I have a real hard time with the whiners about - "revenge for daddy", "it's all about oil", "we hate arabs", "faceless enemy" crap

But that comment above I give a LOT of credence to. Maybe not from an invasion perspective specifically, but at least for the presence, in force, in the region - with the potential or at least the threat of invasion to be immediate to the surrounding countries....

The middle east strategy looks to be a very long term plan in the effort to advocate democracy based governments (for stability, economic gain, whatever - mix of good and bad justifications for that if one is socially liberal enough to consider interference in foreign governments to be justified for any reason).

nice insight Mike

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SpeedRacer 1]

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You could measure how much I care about what you think in "nano-give-a-shits."

Just to clarify: One nano-shit = one one billionth of a shit.
which would equal just a few individual E. Coli cells.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[SkyDekker 1,120]

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I have a real hard time with the whiners about - "revenge for daddy", "it's all about oil", "we hate arabs", "faceless enemy" crap

But that comment above I give a LOT of credence to. Maybe not from an invasion perspective specifically, but at least for the presence, in force, in the region - with the potential or at least the threat of invasion to be immediate to the surrounding countries....

The US is quickly running out of money though. pretty soon you may have a nice second front, except you won't have any money to pay the soldiers, or the ammunition.

I used to think it was about oil. I don't any more. I think it is about the strongest human emotion. EGO.

[ViperPilot 0]

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Keep trying. Then re-read the thread. (Or not; feel free to continue making shit up.)

Well considering I am a "troop", then that makes me the position of authority on this little subject...neal is right, you insult the military by calling us a bunch of civilian killers...especially when that rhetoric is FAR FAR FAR from true. Keep reading the news bill, it's always 100% dead on! Thanks for the support neal; glad for people like you.

By the way, I care about Iraqi civilians, but I don't give a rats ass about those insurgent fucks shooting at marines. And it's unfair to say I don't care about Iraqis b/c I want to kill the bad guys (who by the way are filled with tons of foreigners).

[skydemon2 0]

My brothers blood lies in the sands of iraq, I dont care when we stop just as long as there is no iraqeees left when we leave!

Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes clean to the bone!

I like to start my day off with a little Ray of Soulshine™!!

[narcimund 0]

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My brothers blood lies in the sands of iraq, I dont care when we stop just as long as there is no iraqeees left when we leave!

Let me get this straight... you're advocating genocide to avenge your brother?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[skydemon2 0]

actually my brother has nothing to do with it, but a empty sand box is much more fun, we could start a big dunebuggy park!!
but for all the people that have died I dont think we should quit until its done, however long that takes and whatever it takes to get it done.

Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes clean to the bone!

I like to start my day off with a little Ray of Soulshine™!!

[rasmack 0]

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... whatever it takes to get it done.

Get what done? I think that is the question here.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Lindsey 0]

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My brothers blood lies in the sands of iraq, I dont care when we stop just as long as there is no iraqeees left when we leave!

That's sad. This is more of that same sentiment that I think was referred to earlier in this thread. Unfortunately a lot of their blood is in their sand too because of us, and I'm sure many Iraqis feel toward us the same way you feel toward them. However, it is we who invaded their country. The hatred's gonna run deep for a lot of years, I'm afraid.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[skydemon2 0]

ok your right we should all live on love and happiness
are you naive? I understand its not the majority of people over there that are the problem, most are glad to be rid of saddamm, its the religeous fuck wads that believe its their way or the highway, the same people that attacked us and the same people that bomb and kill their own people at faster rate than we do whether you want to admit it its the same story as it was 500 to 1000 yrs ago during the crusades, exteme muslims wanting to kill the infidel.... and when a knight asked how to tell a good muslims from bad a christian leader said kill them all god will know his own! its been a 1000 yrs and they still have the same mentallity the are still religous based, have little education and follow what their religous leaders tell them.
do you really think if we leave it will be over? I dont think so and neither should you.
http://www.bible-truth.org/InhofeText.html
(last 7-9 paragraphs)
they will always find a infidel to fight, if its not us then they will kill each other because they are in the wrong sect. and if we leave before its time they will just start planning more attacks, do you want to wake up to tens of thousands dead in some country because they let some chemicals out or even worse?
I consider this long term prevention.
I guess my original statement was a little flawed and I should have said we should only kill the radical muslims........ how can you tell the difference again?
when the same muslim who shook your hand and took the medicine and supplies you offer with one hand and then sets off his IED with the other hand as your are leaving and kills you.
about the best we can do is clean out as many bad seeds as we can (including religous leaders that preach this radical shit) and then make the government educate the people in non-religous schools so the people know there is a better way and they can have their religion and tolerence too. The koran is a good book but it tells people how to live, how to build their building, how to run their lives etc....and when taken literally you end up running it to the same problems muslims have had for the last 1000 yrs or so (radical muslims w/no room for tolerence)
well Im starting to ramble and my fingers are tired so Ill quit knowing that all of my typing made absolutly no difference in the world and changed no ones mind. I truly wish that all the people that died didnt have to and we could have worked this out but then again I would have answered no to the original question. After 9/11 what do you think we should have done? Anything but a show of strength would have opened the door to more attacks in the US and elsewhere. So what is your answer to the first question? (I know everone says no out loud, but atleast admit it to yourself)

Im sure some will be offended by what I have written and I am glad you are........

Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes clean to the bone!

I like to start my day off with a little Ray of Soulshine™!!

[billvon 2,380]

>its the same story as it was 500 to 1000 yrs ago during the crusades,
>exteme muslims wanting to kill the infidel....

I think perhaps you might want to do a bit more research. That's like claiming that the native americans were extremists who wanted to do nothing but kill settlers.

>we should only kill the radical muslims........ how can you tell the
>difference again?

Nope. We should kill our ENEMIES. They are currently the people targeting our troops. They are currently all muslim because we invaded a muslim country. If we had invaded India, then our enemies would be hindu.

>when the same muslim who shook your hand and took the
>medicine and supplies you offfer with one hand and then sets off his
>IED with the other hand as your are leaving and kills you.

Then you fight that one. Not because he's a muslim, but because he tried to kill you. They are the enemy - not the muslim kids down the street who did nothing wrong other than be born into a country we invaded.

>then make the government educate the people in non-religous schools . . .

Dude, we can barely keep religion out of OUR schools - and even we have loads of religious private schools. How are you going to keep it out of theirs? We invaded to allow them sovereignty; are we going to tell them "you can run yourself except for X, Y and Z?"