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Shotgun

OK, I have decided to become a Christian...

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if God is omnipotent, why is any sacrifice necessary?


You know and read the bible. You should know why God sent his only son to be sacrificed.



I know the canonical answer. I want a logical answer, one that actually makes sense.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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if God is omnipotent, why is any sacrifice necessary?



God is also holy and just. Justice for breaking a law requires punishment/suffering (e.g. sacrifice). The price to pay for sin is eternal spiritual death (e.g. hell). You have sinned against God and cannot pay your own fine. Jesus (the only one who could) did it for you but you have to accept the sacrifice. Don't believe you've sinned against God? Take the TEST.

Added: God could have just made a bunch of robots who wouldn't be capable of relationship. However, love requires choice. He desired a relationship with his creation and gave us free-will. If you're trying to suggest otherwise in your statement above because God is omnipotent, that is nonsensical.

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It fits God's plan to never answer any prayer where the fullfilment of that prayer would prove His existence. Amputees never re-grow limbs. Probabilities are never altered.

Ah, unbelief! Have you ever seen a person grow limbs, a baby get eyes where formerly they had none? If you have not known every single person on earth, how can you say these things don't happen? :S I myself haven't witnessed these things, but I know others who have. You probably don't believe such a thing happens, but that's okay. I for one know that God never changes, according to His word. Also, Jesus said his followers would do even greater things than he. Let's see...Jesus raised people from the dead, healed the sick and lame, restored relationships. You probably don't have enough faith to believe these things can happen in today's world...I do. B|

Also, God is not some vending machine where if we put in the right kind of prayer, good deed, etc, we get exactly what we want then and there. First off, no one can know the mind of God...and we may think we know what we really want, but we don't always. Ever see "Bruce Almighty"? Some people think it's sacreligious, but it shows something important. Say every person in a city prays to win the lottery...or to get more money...or to be taller, smarter,etc. Having those things, may stand in the way of us forgiving loved ones and having our relationship restored to them ( more important than money!) or becoming a great scientist, professor, civil rights advocate, being "birthed" out of painful experiences.
Just as a child being born brings forth a lot of pain and anguish, the end result is something worth going through all that.

God knows what we need and want better than we do. Heck, I am sure there are men and women out there who hate their spouse and have affairs...do you think God would want to give those men and women someone who is already cheating on their spouse?
We can't totally understand God, but He says in His word that if we seek Him first, He will bring the things in our lives that we desire. Of course, we may not get everything we want now, because we wouldn't be ready. I wanted to get married in high school and I prayed for a godly man...do you think if I met that man I would have been ready for that? No. ( and I still don't know when I'll be ready to marry:|).
God does not always answer our prayers the way we expect Him too, and that's fine by me. I know God has a higher purpose for my life other than for me to get everything I could possibly want. I would be spoiled, and have no need for Him most likely.

Also, life on earth is so short compared to eternity. I am waiting for my reward in heaven, where there will be no tears, no sorrow, no pain. :)


Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

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>I myself haven't witnessed these things, but I know others who have.
>You probably don't believe such a thing happens, but that's okay.

I worry about linking one's faith to such things. A similar problem was faced by early Christians when the earth was shown to not be the center of the universe. Nowadays some creationists are having the same problem - "I cannot acknowledge evolution because it will prove my religion is wrong!" (Of course, that's no more true now than it was in Giordano Bruno's time.)

I think that it can be a mistake to link one's faith to the idea that the world is the center of the universe, or that the world was created in seven days (earth first, then stars) or that God regularly produces miracles. In the 1100's, a priest could claim "Frederick of Saxony was miraculously cured of his palsy after prayer!" and be pretty certain that no one would ever meet Frederick of Saxony. Nowadays, it is getting easier to learn about Frederick remotely; heck, you could probably email him. As time goes on it will become easier to discover the truth behind these miracles.

As an example, we now know that the Red Sea does occasionally "part" and it's due to the placement of a tectonic dike and strong winds; no miraculous intervention required (although it does require luck!) It would be sad if someone lost their faith because of this discovery, because such historical details are not really (in my opinion) central to the christian faith.

In any case, this isn't to say that there are no miracles, that people don't regain their sight. Check this out:

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Pioneering Stem-Cell Surgery Restores Sight

A British team of researchers at the Centre for Sight, Queen Victoria Hospital, Sussex has successfully treated more than a dozen patients who had damaged corneas. Of their patients, 10 had completely lost their sight due to getting acid, alkali or burning metal in their eye or had a congenital defect that caused the blindness. Out of this group, seven patients had had their sight restored after stem cells were cultured into a sheet of cells in a laboratory before being transplanted onto the surface of the patient’s eye.
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That's no less a miracle because no saints or visitations were involved. Indeed, in some ways it is even more of a miracle because it is the result of the dedicated efforts of thousands of doctors, scientists and test subjects who sacrificed their time and energy to restore sight to these people. These are the sort of miracles I hope for, because a) they do real good for a lot of people and b) they encourage others to pursue miracles in the same vein. A scientist may indeed pray for comfort or guidance; but if he wants to cure blindness, he is most likely to find that miracle in his laboratory.

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I'll bet that most of the atheists here when faced with a situation that is going to maybe result in their death will be thinking something like "oh God no!"



Well, I seem to get this hollow feeling in the pit of my stomach, and this thought in my head "Oh shit, is this it then?". I have never been certain that I'm going to die though, but I've been scared good and proper once or twice.

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I certainly would rather be what I am (Christian) and wrong than to not be a Christain and wrong at the end.



Can you do that? I mean believing in God just in case. "Oh, I'll believe in God because it's better to be wrong about that than not to believe and risk eternal damnation after death"-sort of thing? Are there people like that out there?



I'm not a Christian because of any fear of what lies beyond this life, I know what lies beyond this life for a Christian.:)

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Bill, my faith isn't due to seeing miraculous things occurr, sorry to disappoint you;:Pmy faith isn't dependent on seeing things happen. Faith is the evidence of things hoped for, of things unseen.

My faith is simply because of the truth of God's word and the confirmation in my spirit that God is real. I have experienced some things concerning God that you probably wouldn't believe if I told you; if fact, you'd probably either a) dismiss it and call me senile or b) attempt to explain it in some other manner.

My faith is not so weak that one could attempt to "explain it away." No. In fact, my faith is so strong that I would be willing to die, rather than renounce it. B|


Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

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>My faith is simply because of the truth of God's word and the
>confirmation in my spirit that God is real.

That's great, and there's nothing wrong with that - because it works for you. Just keep in mind that there are Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists and Jews who have had experiences every bit as real as yours, and their faith is just as strong (and just as real.)

>In fact, my faith is so strong that I would be willing to die, rather than renounce it.

Here's to hoping you never get put in Giordano Bruno's position, then!

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One thing I wish I could understand, is if Muslims, Buddhists,etc experience the same kind of questioning that Christians do. How can you claim your god/prophet/religious leader is real? How do you know his life was real and not a myth passed down through the generations?

Furthermore, do they get in the same kind of religious arguments that people do with Christians, asking for proof for what they believe? I am curious to find out.

One last thing--if people have such a hard time accepting the Bible is real, God is real, Christianity is true,etc--why would they have to argue or debate about it? Why not just let Christians go on and believe what they believe? Why not just live life with your belief...and not engage in discussion in order to point out why God/the Bible can't be real???

I personally think part of it is because there is no peace; people are always searching for something.


Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

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...if people have such a hard time accepting the Bible is real, God is real, Christianity is true,etc--why would they have to argue or debate about it? Why not just let Christians go on and believe what they believe?...



I don't believe anyone here is trying to make you renounce your faith. If I have missed a post in the Thread to that effect I apologize. One thing though. This is a forum for exchanging opinions and world views. When I don't understand an opinion I am going to keep hitting it from every angle until I understand it. Consider your faith the clock I am hitting with a hammer to figure out what makes it tick. The difference is of course, I don't expect to break your faith in the process. :)
Do we understand each other?
HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

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One last thing--if people have such a hard time accepting the Bible is real, God is real, Christianity is true,etc--why would they have to argue or debate about it? Why not just let Christians go on and believe what they believe?



And why can't bloody christians let ME believe what I believe ??? This morning at 0730 I was RUDELY awkened by some fuckwit banging on the front door trying to "sell" christianity. I'm an atheist and not the slightest bit interested - especially at 0730 on a Sunday morning after working until 0300. I do NOT take kindly to strangers on my doorstep berating me for not being in church. The very first words, after "good morning" were "why aren't you in church?" As I said - fuckwits.

Edited to add that very, very rarely a week goes by without some form of god botherer coming to my door trying to, usually, "Save" me. Unacceptable - I don't go around telling people that their belief in god is stupid. Nor, as a vegtarian, do I go around telling people to stop eating meat. By the same token NEVER have I had a meat eater seriously try to convince me that vegetarianism is all wrong and I MUST start eating meat.

Ooroo
Mark F...

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:D:Da hammer? :D

I wasn't implying anyone was trying to renounce my faith; more along the lines of "if you don't believe it, why attempt to understand it?"

If you think the Bible is bogus, why engage in discussion about it? Why not just let things be, and accept your beliefs and theirs.
Or why not accept your belief that the Bible isn't real, God isn't real, and move on?

What I am saying, is IMHO people ask questions because they are searching for something; how many people does it bother that they don't believe or understand God?


Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

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>One thing I wish I could understand, is if Muslims, Buddhists,etc
> experience the same kind of questioning that Christians do.

In my experience, they do. My high school was an all-male catholic high school that got certain state benefits if they had X non-catholic students. So every year they had exactly X non-catholic students. One, Uneal, became a friend of mine. He got grilled quite a bit on why he believed in such a bizarre religion. It never got violent, but he got sick of it pretty fast. He explained his thinking a few times then just gave up.

>Furthermore, do they get in the same kind of religious arguments
> that people do with Christians, asking for proof for what they
> believe? I am curious to find out.

They do, but often don't have the same imperative to convert people to their religion. I once knew a buddhist who, when people asked him why he didn't believe in the christian god, said "I have no reason other than my beliefs, and you should believe in whatever god you want." That lack of missionary drive makes some people think religions like Buddhism aren't 'real' or 'serious.'

>One last thing--if people have such a hard time accepting the Bible
> is real, God is real, Christianity is true,etc--why would they have to
> argue or debate about it? Why not just let Christians go on and
> believe what they believe?

Same reason someone with rock-solid beliefs argues, I suppose. Why don't you just let people believe what they want to believe? Why do christians fight wars with other christians because of a detail of belief that's important only to them? It's been going on a long time.

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And why can't bloody christians let ME believe what I believe ???


Holy smokes! What christians are preventing you to believe what you want to believe? I certainly wouldn't force anything down your throat. Most christians I know wouldn't do that either. Everyone in my church wouldn't twist your arm either. They wouldn't even talk to you about it. They'd just talk about whuffo stuff to you. My church is not in the business of forcing or persuading people into having a relationship with Christ. If you come to seek God, they will drop everything to help you. If you come as an observer, they'll let you go on your merry way.

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I do NOT take kindly to strangers on my doorstep berating me for not being in church.


You should come live in NY then. Christians don't do that around here.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

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Same reason someone with rock-solid beliefs argues, I suppose. Why don't you just let people believe what they want to believe? Why do christians fight wars with other christians because of a detail of belief that's important only to them? It's been going on a long time.


That doesn't happen in my church. We have no right to judge other denominations. We encourage other christians to have a close relationship with Christ and believe that the bible is the final authority. If they refuse, we pray and pray for them. We'll talk to them about it. If they want to refuse the discussion, we let it end right there. I'm a little behind in the current events especially about other Christians. So which ones are the ones fighting wars over each other's beliefs?

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

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And why can't bloody christians let ME believe what I believe ??? This morning at 0730 I was RUDELY awkened by some fuckwit banging on the front door trying to "sell" christianity. I'm an atheist and not the slightest bit interested - especially at 0730 on a Sunday morning after working until 0300. I do NOT take kindly to strangers on my doorstep berating me for not being in church. The very first words, after "good morning" were "why aren't you in church?" As I said - fuckwits.

Edited to add that very, very rarely a week goes by without some form of god botherer coming to my door trying to, usually, "Save" me. Unacceptable - I don't go around telling people that their belief in god is stupid. Nor, as a vegtarian, do I go around telling people to stop eating meat. By the same token NEVER have I had a meat eater seriously try to convince me that vegetarianism is all wrong and I MUST start eating meat.



Two came to my door this afternoon. They were Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm guessing that's who came to your door also. Those guys/girls are persistent. Much more so than most Christians. I actually think they have the right idea with getting their message out. Their message, however, is completely wrong. Just FYI, the JW's is not a Christian religion. They are a cult. Attached is a document from the same website as above which should be passed out instead of the stuff you probably got.

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We have no right to judge other denominations.



I disagree again.

God judges in the temporal arena, and the eternal. In this life God will judge a person's actions, but always (except when the person has irrevocably rejected Him) holds out the chance for turning back and repenting. Only on the Last Day, at the great white throne judgment will God pronounce eternal judgment on a person, forever determining his or her destinies. From this judgment, there is no appeal or second chance.

The Christian, on the other hand, is never given the right or the responsibility of eternally judging anyone (unless they have clearly rejected Christ permanently). Christians cannot correctly weigh action, motives, opportunities, nor know all things about any individual: God alone is capable to do so.

However, Christians are to make decisions (appraisals, discernments, and even take corrective actions). But even judging in this aspect is intended to be remedial, and leaves the door open to the person for repentance and reconciliation. Any judging on the part of a Christian which does not, is a false aspect of Christian judgment. We are called upon to ''judge righteous judgment'' (John 7:24) and failure to do so is to be negligent in a crucial aspect of our Christian calling.


Judging

Christians are to judge other Christians. Not in the eternal sense but in the sense of discernment, accountability, etc.

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Christians are to judge other Christians. Not in the eternal sense but in the sense of discernment, accountability, etc.


I can't argue with scriptures. However, I believe that my praying for those Christians that are lost is good enough for me. I can't force someone to have the same views as I do. It's not my place to do so. That's God's work. He chooses who and when and how a person gets saved or directed into the right path. However, at the same token, he also puts people in our path that need our guidance and support.

I guess, I really can't say much about this because you're more of an old school Christian than I am. I'm still in the toddler stage. However, I know that God speaks in my heart and leads me to the right path. Therefore, I know in my heart he doesn't want me judging others. Maybe, I'm just not qualified enough to judge right now. I just don't feel comfortable doing it either. Who knows? For now, I cannot judge others nor do I think it's right for me to do so. I believe that this is God's position, not mine.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

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Christians are to judge other Christians. Not in the eternal sense but in the sense of discernment, accountability, etc.


I can't argue with scriptures. However, I believe that my praying for those Christians that are lost is good enough for me. I can't force someone to have the same views as I do. It's not my place to do so. That's God's work. He chooses who and when and how a person gets saved or directed into the right path. However, at the same token, he also puts people in our path that need our guidance and support.

I guess, I really can't say much about this because you're more of an old school Christian than I am. I'm still in the toddler stage. However, I know that God speaks in my heart and leads me to the right path. Therefore, I know in my heart he doesn't want me judging others. Maybe, I'm just not qualified enough to judge right now. I just don't feel comfortable doing it either. Who knows? For now, I cannot judge others nor do I think it's right for me to do so. I believe that this is God's position, not mine.



Don't misunderstand me. You mentioned one denomination "judging" another. I think that is entirely appropriate and Biblical. I wasn't saying to judge non-Christians with regard to their salvation. All you can do is present God's word with that. The rest is up to God. I was also not saying to "judge" someone else b/c you think you're better than they are. We're not. We've all sinned. However, as Christians, you should judge whether what I say is correct (Biblical) or not and I should judge you. We should be accountable to each other. Same goes for denominations. The Minister, Priest, etc. should be teaching God's Word and not his own. If you know what I mean. We have to be the judge of that.

By the way, I'm not too "old school." ;) I've only been a Christian since 1998. Before that, I was a humanist/atheist.

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In any case, this isn't to say that there are no miracles, that people don't regain their sight. Check this out:



Depends on your definition of a miracle. Restoring people's eyesight with stem-cell surgery, impressive. However, in my book, not a miracle. When I see(or am reliably informed of) something physically impossible happening after somebody prayed for it, I'll re-think my position. Not before.

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Dude, you're not an amputee are you?(...) They go on with their life. Therefore, how do you know that they go around praying to re-grow their limbs?



No, I'm not. This example is just one of the easiest ones to use as an argument for "God doesn't answer your prayers".

A lot of people do get on with their lives after losing a limb or two. I am, however, sure that there are plenty of christians who have lost limbs and as a result go sulking around all day about it, and praying for God to heal them.

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All of a sudden you became an expert on my life. How do you know if any of my prayers didn't come true or not?



I have made no statements about your life or your prayers, only about prayers in general. I stand by what I said: The probability of your prayer being fulfilled is identical to the probability of the same thing happening without prayer. With a random distribution of events, there will be people whose prayers get answered at the usual rate. There will also be people whose prayers get answered less often than the usual rate(they are the ones God is testing, I suppose). And then there are the people whose prayers get answered very often or all of the time(by chance, of course). I suppose you are one of them. These people will probably have a very strong, unfaltering faith resulting from their prayers "being answered".

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Have you been around the world and everywhere around the world? How do you know that there are not physically impossible miracles that happen when someone prayed to God. I don't even know if there are or aren't, in recent news at least. What are you praying for anyway?



I have not been everywhere in the world. Even if I had been, I couldn't have been all over the world at the same time, thus missing many events.

I know that the mainstream media isn't screaming about such occurrences. In fact, I'm having trouble remembering any descriptions of events in the media that would classify as a true miracle(something impossible happening). If such things were happening, they would be widely publicized.

You must've missed the bits where I said I don't believe in God or any other supernatural beings*). As such, I do not pray.

---
*) Freefall gremlins are not supernatural. They're real. I swear everytime I funneled that formation it was those pesky gremlins that stole my air.

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Ah, unbelief! Have you ever seen a person grow limbs, a baby get eyes where formerly they had none? If you have not known every single person on earth, how can you say these things don't happen? I myself haven't witnessed these things, but I know others who have.



See my above post to SuperKat. Such events have never been reliably reported.

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Just FYI, the JW's is not a Christian religion. They are a cult.



This kind of statement has always either made me laugh, or amazed me, or a little bit of both. By that I mean referring to one's own theology as "religion", while presuming to refer to certain other spiritual beliefs as "superstition" or "cults". Please. They're either all religions, or they're all superstitions. Oh - I forgot: some are RIGHT, while others are WRONG. Never mind.
Not only do atheists consider this to be hypocritical, but many intellectually honest theists consider this hypocritical, too.

By the way, Jehovah's Witnesses number about 950,000 in the U.S. and about 6 million worldwide. And they most definitely DO consider themselves to be Christians.

By way of perspective, I think it bears noting (and these are just examples) that some who refer to themselves as born-again Christians distinguish Catholicism from "Christianity" (which amuses & amazes Catholics), and some Catholics consider Protestants to be "fallen-away" and, basically, doomed (which amuses & amazes Protestants).

And so it goes.

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Two came to my door this afternoon. They were Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm guessing that's who came to your door also.



Actually they were from the Protestant church around the corner. This arvo I went around there and had a "Chat(tm)" to the Vicar. He tried to justify their behaviour by telling me that the congregation was shrinking and he needed to get more people in and that "door to door" was the way to do it. Needless to say the "Chat(tm)" was immediately upgraded to "Spray(tm)". I also promised that if it happens again I WILL be in his church and I will be a long, long way from welcome by the time I'm finished.:)
Ooroo
Mark F...

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