OK, I have decided to become a Christian...

[ernokaikkonen 0]

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You need a qualified pastor to answer this question.

Oh. Do we any that post in Speakers Corner?

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Why think about that? Why not think about the Love God has for you? Why not love strangers, help them, and care for them. Why should you hate or gossip? Why not be very forgiving? These are all good things my friend.

Thinking of the love God has for me doesn't really work for me, seeing as I don't believe in him existing. For all the other bits, I do agree. All good stuff. I try to be a good person, but I don't do it for fear of eternal damnation. I just think that it's what everyone should try to do.

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You're only thinking about the end result. What about the middle part?

For me, the middle part is all there is. The end is the end; no consolidation prizes for me. If I'm engaged in religious debate, it's only to understand the way religious people think.

And maybe trying to convert a few of them by use of logical arguments. So far no success.

[SuperKat 0]

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Thinking of the love God has for me doesn't really work for me, seeing as I don't believe in him existing. For all the other bits, I do agree. All good stuff. I try to be a good person, but I don't do it for fear of eternal damnation. I just think that it's what everyone should try to do.

That's where you're misinformed mon frere. Christians aren't good people or do those good things for fear of eternal damnation. Once, we accept Christ into our hearts and turn away from our sins, we are saved forever. We cannot lose our salvation. We do those good things because Christ teaches us Love and forgiveness. So let's get that straight.

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If I'm engaged in religious debate, it's only to understand the way religious people think.

Religion is man made, my friend. Born again Christians don't have a religion. We have what you call "A relationship with Christ through our hearts." And we believe the bible to be the final authority.

This is from the purpose driven life website:

So have you heard of the difference between Religion and Spirituality?

Religion is a guy in church thinking about fishing. Spirituality is a guy out fishing thinking about God.


True worship is not going to church and getting worship points. It is thinking about God in relation to everything else. Worship is not what you go to once a week, but what goes on in your head and your heart all the time.

If you only knew the power of prayer, my friend. God answers all prayers. You'd be amazed at how he answers our prayers. I have some stories to tell you.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[SuperKat 0]

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What you wrote.

As I had previously replied to your post, I will kindly ask again, Please elaborate.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[SuperKat 0]

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I totally disagree.

You are clearly more qualified to debate this topic more than I am. I hope you're ready to fight. It's your ring cage now. And yes, I'm being serious about you being more qualified to debate this topic. I just don't like to come off strong about Christianity. If they want to know more about it God will let it happen and they'll come to us for questions about it. If not, then it's just not in God's timing.

However, your knowledge and eloquence surpasses mine so, by all means, have at it and good luck. I'll pray for you bro.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[kallend 1,621]

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What you wrote.

As I had previously replied to your post, I will kindly ask again, Please elaborate.

You wrote, referring to the new testament:
People don't read that part of the bible. They won't get to see how wise and wonderful his teachings are.

That statement is complete rubbish. Lots of people read that part of the bible.

I took bible study for 11 years. I read it from end to end. It is a book of unsubstantiated myths full of self-contradictions.

If you want to read ancient mythology, read the Odyssey, at least it is self consistent.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ernokaikkonen 0]

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Religion is man made, my friend. Born again Christians don't have a religion. We have what you call "A relationship with Christ through our hearts."

Semantics. My OED defines religion as:
religion
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods

Christianity is a religion among many others. I'm not going to engage in a debate over A relationship with Christ through ones heart. Much too wordy for me.

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If you only knew the power of prayer, my friend. God answers all prayers. You'd be amazed at how he answers our prayers. I have some stories to tell you.

Do you have one where someone who lost his legs got them back by praying to god? He may answer all prayers, but most often the answer is "Nahh, not today, sorry".

[SuperKat 0]

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You wrote, referring to the new testament:
People don't read that part of the bible. They won't get to see how wise and wonderful his teachings are.

Now I get what you're saying. I worded that all wrong. I wasn't trying to say how people don't read the old testament. I was trying to say there are a lot of Christians that don't read the old testament.

And for people that don't read the bible from front to back like you have, they won't get to see how wonderful Christ's teachings are in the new testament.

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I took bible study for 11 years. I read it from end to end. It is a book of unsubstantiated myths full of self-contradictions.

That's amazing, my friend. You read it from end to end and studied it for 11 years. I'm just curious, since your knowledge of the bible surpasses mine by a million fold, how did you ever come to the belief that it's a book of unsubstantiated myths and full of self-contradictions? At some point during those 11 years of bible study, you must of had faith in it. Please do tell what happened to you, if it's not too personal to ask.

Please elaborate which book of the bible or which verse in your opinion is the one with unsubstantiated myths and full of self-contradictions.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[SuperKat 0]

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Christianity is a religion among many others. I'm not going to engage in a debate over A relationship with Christ through ones heart. Much too wordy for me.

Dude, I didn't say that you can't call it a religion, you can call it chicken meat if you want to. I'm saying that most born again Christians don't belong to a denomination. I'm not saying that denominations are wrong. I can't judge them. All I'm saying is that Christ felt that religion is man made. He believed that people just obeyed the customs but they weren't kind to others. For example, you have people that claim to be let's say Christian Science. They'll go to church every Sunday but as soon as they step out of church they start cussing people that cut them off on the road, they start having arguments with people on the street or have an attitude with others, etc. That's not being christian, is it? He wants us to have a relationship with him as a Lord and Savior and as our best friend.

Having a relationship with Christ means that you want him to live in your heart. You want him to guide you in all the decisions that you make. You want him to give you the strength, patience, understanding and love when you deal with difficult people. You can't just go to church and forget about Christ once you step out that church door. You have to try your darndest to live the life he led and to deal with problems and people exactly the way he dealt with them, with compassion, peace, understanding, forgiveness and love.

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Do you have one where someone who lost his legs got them back by praying to god? He may answer all prayers, but most often the answer is "Nahh, not today, sorry".

Now, you're definitely not on the right track, my friend. God is not a magician. He's not a dog either. He doesn't listen to your commands or demands. He listens to your prayers. And there's a reason why certain things happen to people which may be well beyond our own understanding. This is where you trust God and should be thankful to him that at least you still have your hands and other vital signs to remain alive. It's not a perfect world dude, whether you like it or not. Just because we're followers of God, doesn't mean that we can't suffer like others do. You'll have christians that are murdered, raped, beaten on, get robbed, lose limbs, permanently hospitalized and are hated by others. There are reasons why these things happen to them beyond our worldly understanding. Christians don't have a hedge protecting us from harm, danger or emotional problems. However, we have more of an understanding that whatever happens it's by God's own will. There's so much more that I can go into about this but there are other christian posters here that can elaborate more on this and are more qualified than I am.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[billvon 2,380]

>I'm just curious, since your knowledge of the bible surpasses mine by a
>million fold, how did you ever come to the belief that it's a book of
>unsubstantiated myths and full of self-contradictions?

I only studied it for 4, but it _is_ a book that contains myth and contradiction. Not everything in it is meant to be taken literally, and some things contradict each other. For a very simple example, compare Genesis 1 to Genesis 2 and ask yourself if cattle came before or after women. (In Genesis 1 woman comes first, in Genesis 2 cattle come first.)

Now, how to interpret that is the question. A few more militant christians might come up with something like "well, God really meant that when he created man, man had that extra rib with which he would later make woman, so they're both right." But that requires some really tortuous thinking, and that kind of thing makes you crazy after a while because of how far you have to bend the logic.

A nonbeliever might point to it and say "See? The Bible is all wrong! You can ignore everything in it because there are errors and contradictions." But that's throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I think a more reasonable approach is to acknowledge that it has errors and contradictions, but that that has more to do with the men that _interpreted_ their experiences, not with the inspiration for it. There's only been one perfect man born, and he's not the one who wrote the Bible. But that doesn't mean that its lesson is wrong - just that some of the details got messed up, and sometimes they used stories to get their point across instead of literal fact.

[Shotgun 1]

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Having a relationship with Christ means that you want him to live in your heart. You want him to guide you in all the decisions that you make. You want him to give you the strength, patience, understanding and love when you deal with difficult people. You can't just go to church and forget about Christ once you step out that church door. You have to try your darndest to live the life he led and to deal with problems and people exactly the way he dealt with them, with compassion, peace, understanding, forgiveness and love.

Why do you need to follow Christ to live this way? You can have "strength, patience, understanding and love" without ever even thinking of Jesus or reading the bible. Why do you need to "live the life he led" when you are capable of knowing right from wrong on your own and living your life accordingly? An atheist can deal with people with "compassion, peace, understanding, forgiveness and love."

I'm not trying to talk you out of your faith; I'm just curious why some people feel the need for a moral guide outside of themselves.

[billvon 2,380]

> I'm just curious why some people feel the need for a moral guide outside of themselves.

I think everyone has a moral guide outside themselves. It might be a parent, or your friends, or society, or the media, or the bible, but it comes from somewhere. A person raised in isolation with no contact with anyone does not really develop morals; morals are rules for interaction with other people, and thus you need other people (or some other input, like a book or something) for those morals to develop.

[Shotgun 1]

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> I'm just curious why some people feel the need for a moral guide outside of themselves.

I think everyone has a moral guide outside themselves. It might be a parent, or your friends, or society, or the media, or the bible, but it comes from somewhere. A person raised in isolation with no contact with anyone does not really develop morals; morals are rules for interaction with other people, and thus you need other people (or some other input, like a book or something) for those morals to develop.

I guess my question is more along the lines of seeking a moral guide from a single source (such as religion) as opposed to using all of your experiences/relationships. Of course, I guess I answer my own question when I really think about it... Even someone who is using the bible as a moral quide is still using all of those other experiences as well to help them make moral decisions, since the knowledge that they have from life will have everything to do with how they interpret the bible and what they choose to take from it.

[SuperKat 0]

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Why do you need to follow Christ to live this way? You can have "strength, patience, understanding and love" without ever even thinking of Jesus or reading the bible. Why do you need to "live the life he led" when you are capable of knowing right from wrong on your own and living your life accordingly? An atheist can deal with people with "compassion, peace, understanding, forgiveness and love."

I used to think the same way you did for most of my life. Why do I need God, if I'm the one making things happen in my life. Why do I need God to be nice to people, compassionate to people, care for people, be understanding, forgiving, etc. I always doubted Jesus and the Bible for 75% of my life. I can understand where you are coming from because I was in those shoes myself, not more than 4 years ago. I used to laugh and mock people who told me if I didn't believe in Jesus, I'd go to hell. I'd even tell them to fuck off or go fuck themselves and keep their shit to themselves. I would get so angry at people trying to convert me. I would think that they were out of their fuckin' mind! I would tell them "how dare you fuckin' tell me how to live my life you fuckin' psychos! Fuck off!"

My life was honky dory (in my opinion) before I was saved by Jesus. I was making 90k a year as a L.A.N. engineer, I was skydiving every weekend 10-15 times a week. I drove a luxury car. I would feed homeless people in the street that were begging for spare change. I would help out total strangers that I met in the street when they needed help. I would meet a lot of hot chicks (for the millionth time by the way, I'm a dude) take 'em home and do my thing, call a cab for 'em and call it a night. I wasn't a jerk either. I told them how it was and how it will be and not to expect anything. I was living a mack daddy life with no complaints whatsoever. I was everyone's friend, I had no enemies, everyone loved me. I was everyone's therapist, they came to me with all their problems and I actually helped them.

Then, when I found Christ in my life, I felt so fulfilled. I discovered I really wasn't as nice before than I am now. I really wasn't as compassionate as I thought I was. I wasn't as forgiving as I thought I was. I wasn't as loving as I thought I was. When I became a christian, believe it or not you'd think that my life was falling apart, things started to get taken away from me and I wasn't upset about it. I got a salary cut by 50% because I went from being a consultant to an employee. My new boss took away 75% of my responsibilities and I started from scratch again after making a name for myself for 7 years at that company I worked in. My physical labor workload increased by 3 fold. I had to sell my car because I couldn't afford it any longer. I still don't have a car. My landlord increased my rent by $200 a month. I could only skydive once a month or once every two months.

Normally, I would have drank myself drunk because of all this but I couldn't even afford to do that even. The icing on the cake is when I chose to become a cop and I only make 25K a year at the Academy. That's a 50% pay cut from my previous 50% pay cut. Most of my recruits complain that we're risking our lives for a measley 25k a year. Imagine being a cop in NYC for a $25k. You probably think I'm a whack job. I don't see it that way. This is God's purpose for me in this life. To protect and serve the people of NY. Anyway, you'd think I'd be starving by now and what not. I'm not.

I pray for things and they happen. I prayed for God to get me through my yearly expenses of $22k with a gross salary of $25k. And I get by believe it or not. I pray for help and money miraculously comes to my door. You can call it coincidence but I don't. I had people from years back coming to my door and paying me back the money they owed me. They had no inkling that I was making only 25k either. On top of that I still give 10% of my gross salary to my church. It's freakish sometimes when you pray and how things just happen without you expecting it to. I can't explain it but I know where it comes from. Despite all these bad events taking place in my life. I still rejoice and praise my Lord and Savior. Why? Because I know that he will never leave me nor forsake me. And that's the God's honest truth folks. Things have always gone my way because I pray for it. I'm more of a humble person now too.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[windcatcher 0]

Nice post SuperKat...and long too!
As far as Shotgun's post about why become a Christian when you can supposedly do good things on your own?

Well, there is a deep knowledge that comes from knowing Christ. There is a deep knowledge that comes in one's heart when one accepts Christ. I can't explain it, but once you've made a real committment to Christ, I believe you attain this knowledge of the truth that God is real and so is the gospel. It's hard to explain, but the Holy Spirit just helps bring truth and confirmation into the heart of someone who accepts Jesus. Just like the scripture in my sig line, that's why I am a Christian--> because the truth of Christ has set me free.

I am no longer bound to sin, unable to escape from my darkest secrets and wrongdoings.
God has changed my heart so much, I used to do incredibly evil things that I would never do now. God has changed me and I am excited to see how much He is going to change me even more as I draw close to Him. I hunger to know God and His word, because they are Truth. I can't wait to stand before Jesus in heaven some day and see what Love in true form looks like.

I have peace in my heart, that when I die, I will be in heaven with Jesus. I don't have to continually crave for power, money, beauty, love, etc, because God has filled the void in my heart.

For anyone out there searching, if you seek God you will find Him. There is nothing in this world that can satisfy us like God can. We were made to enjoy a relationship with God, even if we can't understand everything. I believe the answers may come to us in heaven; but our human minds cannot comprehend God and all His ways.
It can be hard stay close to God because of things in this world, but there is crown of life waiting for followers of Christ, in the end.
No mind has seen, no ear has heard, what God has prepared for those who love Him.

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[kallend 1,621]

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You wrote, referring to the new testament:
People don't read that part of the bible. They won't get to see how wise and wonderful his teachings are.

Now I get what you're saying. I worded that all wrong. I wasn't trying to say how people don't read the old testament. I was trying to say there are a lot of Christians that don't read the old testament.

And for people that don't read the bible from front to back like you have, they won't get to see how wonderful Christ's teachings are in the new testament.

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I took bible study for 11 years. I read it from end to end. It is a book of unsubstantiated myths full of self-contradictions.

That's amazing, my friend. You read it from end to end and studied it for 11 years. I'm just curious, since your knowledge of the bible surpasses mine by a million fold, how did you ever come to the belief that it's a book of unsubstantiated myths and full of self-contradictions? At some point during those 11 years of bible study, you must of had faith in it. Please do tell what happened to you, if it's not too personal to ask.

Please elaborate which book of the bible or which verse in your opinion is the one with unsubstantiated myths and full of self-contradictions.

I have already posted a long list in a previous thread. Do your own homework.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SuperKat 0]

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I have already posted a long list in a previous thread. Do your own homework.

Yes Sir!

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[Dolph 0]

I call all that "Doing Your Thing".

Doing your thing primarily is oriented around two things.

1) Being honest about yourself, your needs and go about fulfilling them

2) Taking the consequences of that. Which includes the bad stuff.

Self fulfilling prophecies. You may call it divine intervention when something good happen; I call it personal drive coupled with luck. You may call it a Test of Faith when bad things happen; I call it consequences to my actions. But basically, we're doing the same thing, we're just using different terminology.

You should (if your religion allows) be proud of yourself for being able to Do Your Thing properly. It's commendable and it's something I respect very much.

[SuperKat 0]

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if God is omnipotent, why is any sacrifice necessary?

You know and read the bible. You should know why God sent his only son to be sacrificed.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[SuperKat 0]

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I call all that "Doing Your Thing"

Which part are you referring to "doing my own thing?"

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You may call it divine intervention when something good happen;

No, I indeed call it divine intervention.

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I call it personal drive coupled with luck.

Personal drive with luck? I had no personal drive to become a christian. God made it happen.

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You may call it a Test of Faith when bad things happen;

That's where you are misinformed Sir, God doesn't test your faith. Once you are saved, that's that. There's no gray area or middle of the road or tests to see if you keep your faith or tests to see how strong your faith is. Bad things happen for a reason, and it's beyond our understanding. Just like anything else, if you step on shit, you have choices on how to deal with it, such as to clean off your shoes on grass, go home and clean it, or just walk around with it on the bottom of your shoe. Shit happens in life. When it does, I pray and I do my thing. I don't wait with my thumb up my ass for something to happen. I know that God helps me make decisions to do what I have to do and make shit happen.

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I call it consequences to my actions. But basically, we're doing the same thing, we're just using different terminology.

uh yeah......I call it consequences for my actions too. We all can alter our future by the decision we make now.

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You should (if your religion allows) be proud of yourself for being able to Do Your Thing properly. It's commendable and it's something I respect very much.

I don't have a religion. I have a relationship with Christ through my heart.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[MC208B 0]

I'll bet that most of the atheists here when faced with a situation that is going to maybe result in their death will be thinking something like "oh God no!"

I certainly did when I was 18 in DaNang and one night a shitload of 122MM rockets rained down.

Then again, I'm not an atheist but hadn't given much thought to religion since my family quit going to church when I was 12, that night in 72.

I certainly would rather be what I am (Christian) and wrong than to not be a Christain and wrong at the end.

[ernokaikkonen 0]

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I'll bet that most of the atheists here when faced with a situation that is going to maybe result in their death will be thinking something like "oh God no!"

Well, I seem to get this hollow feeling in the pit of my stomach, and this thought in my head "Oh shit, is this it then?". I have never been certain that I'm going to die though, but I've been scared good and proper once or twice.

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I certainly would rather be what I am (Christian) and wrong than to not be a Christain and wrong at the end.

Can you do that? I mean believing in God just in case. "Oh, I'll believe in God because it's better to be wrong about that than not to believe and risk eternal damnation after death"-sort of thing? Are there people like that out there?

[ernokaikkonen 0]

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Now, you're definitely not on the right track, my friend. God is not a magician. He's not a dog either. He doesn't listen to your commands or demands. He listens to your prayers. And there's a reason why certain things happen to people which may be well beyond our own understanding.

Ah, the "It's God's plan" idea.

It fits God's plan to never answer any prayer where the fullfilment of that prayer would prove His existence. Amputees never re-grow limbs. Probabilities are never altered. The occurrence of prayers-come-true is exactly the same rate as the random probability of the same thing happening.

"God answers my prayers" is a very powerful self-delusion that's cooked from only remembering those prayers that "were answered" and dismissing unanswered prayers with "God's plan".

God does not answer any prayer where the outcome would be physically impossible without divine intervention.

[SuperKat 0]

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I certainly did when I was 18 in DaNang and one night a shitload of 122MM rockets rained down.

God was with you my friend. There's a reason why you didn't go at that time.

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I certainly would rather be what I am (Christian) and wrong than to not be a Christain and wrong at the end.

As long as this is not your primary reason for being Christian. Keep it up!

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[SuperKat 0]

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Can you do that? I mean believing in God just in case. "Oh, I'll believe in God because it's better to be wrong about that than not to believe and risk eternal damnation after death"-sort of thing? Are there people like that out there?

Of course you can do that but that means you're not truly saved and you're only a Christian because of your fear of eternal damnation. Once again, we are christian because we believe in Christ and we accept him into our hearts and we believe in his ways. I don't even think about eternal damnation because it's not in my mind. Once you are saved, you are saved forever. You have to understand the power of Christ and the power of his love and forgiveness. Then, you can understand where we're coming from. Therefore, if you haven't experienced it, you'll think we're coming out of left field. Don't strain yourself man. Go to: http://www.carm.org if you're really that curious about Christianity.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[SuperKat 0]

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It fits God's plan to never answer any prayer where the fullfilment of that prayer would prove His existence. Amputees never re-grow limbs. Probabilities are never altered. The occurrence of prayers-come-true is exactly the same rate as the random probability of the same thing happening.

Dude, you're not an amputee are you? This is the 2nd reference you've made about it. If you're not an amputee, how do you know they're sad about not having their limbs? Do you think they stop functioning normally? Do you think they sulk all day long for most of their life because they're limbless? I don't think so. They go on with their life. Therefore, how do you know that they go around praying to re-grow their limbs?

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"God answers my prayers" is a very powerful self-delusion that's cooked from only remembering those prayers that "were answered" and dismissing unanswered prayers with "God's plan".

All of a sudden you became an expert on my life. How do you know if any of my prayers didn't come true or not? Do you know my life? I shit you not mon frere, all my prayers have come true since I became a Christian. And we're talking about reasonable prayers not wishes, such as praying to win the lottery or to get a raise at work.

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God does not answer any prayer where the outcome would be physically impossible without divine intervention.

You've got the wrong idea pal. Have you been around the world and everywhere around the world? How do you know that there are not physically impossible miracles that happen when someone prayed to God. I don't even know if there are or aren't, in recent news at least. What are you praying for anyway? I told you, God is not a magician and he's not your lap dog.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?