linestretch 0 #26 July 27, 2017 UnstableQuoteBut I've seen a lot of very shitty pack jobs on these rigs out there and I'm sure the rigger thought they looked just fine. On a teeny wings where the reserve PC cap has the same diameter as the width of the reserve tray - a small wrinkle in one of the ears would hardly be considered a shitty pack job. I think the problem is when the reserve PC rises up and exposes the Pc material or coils. Just last month a customer of mine bought a brand new Wings and AF114 reserve - looked beautiful going out but he came back 3 weeks later with a significant gap that had developed. I ended up taking 10mm off the closing loop and putting more bulk in the ears. This weekend I'll get a picture of it after the adjustment and post it here for fun and see how it is settling in. These discussions are always circular largely because 'easy' and 'hard' are opinions. I find Small wings challenging but a certain 2-pin pop top (no names, I don't want to hijack this thread) about the 'easiest' thing in skydiving to pack. the rising PC cap is mainly what I was referring too as well. I've found that when the knot isn't set solid it will creep...and along w/ the pack settling this will occur. Then you have a rig that's already tight as can be it's really hard to keep that thing seated. And as a side note to your side note...yes the 2 pin not-to-be-named rigs are pretty easy....even the small ones.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #27 July 28, 2017 Quote I'm guessing he has an opinion on them. Tongue Since you guys asked... Yep! They are great to look at, one of the worst to pack, and the only H/C that has had multiple reserve pilot chute in tow incidents. Not just one might I add, and a couple that had video footage. Here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaYQ6iP8zlg Lastly; http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4850013;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread From that thread: "....She chopped almost immediately after opening according to other people on the same jump. She was seen trying to manually deploy her reserve by pulling on the bridle. And fired , but pin was already pulled. Freebag was still inside the (wings) container after impact. Speculation is that either the freebag was stuck in the container or entanglement with the bridle. " MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #28 July 28, 2017 QuoteThey are great to look at, one of the worst to pack, and the only H/C that has had multiple reserve pilot chute in tow incidents Yup, I believe you are spot on there. From a design standpoint, do you think this could be alleviated by opening up the lower corners off the reserve container an inch or so more? Thoughts?=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #29 July 28, 2017 Yes,I think it needs more opening at the corners and a new pilot chute. The pilot chute just sucks eggs.... MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #30 July 28, 2017 I just happen to have an unpacked wings sitting in my lap right now. I don't think it's the bottom corners of the reserve tray so much as the upper corners. If you look at how it's constructed, the reserve tray is sewn into the main tray. The U shaped sew line is a good half inch inside edge of the back pad. The main tray is then sewn to the back pad 1/2 inch out side that. The top edge of the tray has an ear at the corner that comes up higher allowing a more diagonal cut to the top edge of the flap. This allows the top edge of the side flap to better cover the top corner of the free bag, makes it pretty. The wings free bag is designed with a lot of volume in the upper ear. It's pleated in the top of the free bag and has more volume there ten any rig I can think of. The make that extended ear, corner of the side flap, wrap over that greater bulk at the top corner of the free bag they tacked it down to the outer edge of the main tray/yoke/riser cover. It's on that outer sew line 1/2 inch beyond the sew line of the tray. They also left some slack, a pleat in it between the tray and that zigzag tack to give room for that ear. So the objective was to make the top corner of the side reserve flap wrap over that corner and then pull it down so that it cupped over it and did not pooch up. Make it pretty. Well they did that. It forms a very nice cup over the corner of the bag. Depending on the shape of the shoulder and where the yoke rides over the shoulder it can bee a really good pocket. Pick the rig up by it. Or in the case above, tow the PC from it. You'll see things like the above in many rigs. Just not to the same extent or all together. They basically built little box corner at the top of both corners of there side flaps. I can hook my fingers into the corners and pick the rig up by them. Doesn't have to be this way. Let's look an another rig at the opposite end of the spectrum. The Icon has hardly any ear on the top of there side flap as I recall. Not only does it not extend over beyond the bag but the top edges of the bag tend to extend out. I think it's the icon that I'm thinking of. This is fixable. Wings just needs to do some work on their pattern sets. PC isn't that bad. But the cap on it could be smaller. You don't need that big of a cap. It's just holding the spring back. It has less advantage to lever open that top and bottom flap. And the bottom flap doesn't need to be so stiff and heavy and complex. Do we really need all those stripes and piping and shit? LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #31 July 28, 2017 Quote I don't think it's the bottom corners of the reserve tray so much as the upper corners They all need to be opened up some. When I said "corners" I meant all in my previous post. The bag cannot rotate because of two factors. 1. The pilot chute simply does not have enough drag 2. The bagged reserve is captured by the upper corners. If you watch the video, when the jumper extracts the upper part of the freebag out of the top, notice how slowly the parachute is deploying. If you open up the lower corners it will allow the container to open up more and in this case, more is always better. Quote PC isn't that bad. I and a lot of other people/riggers would beg to differ. It is the worst PC out there IMHO. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #32 July 28, 2017 I think vector is the worst in terms of drag. I think it would be addiquite if the upper corners were more open. LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #33 July 28, 2017 Quote I think vector is the worst in terms of drag. Negative. The Vector II-III (not the Vector I...) Simple to test BTW. Take a fish scale that goes to 150lbs, find someone with a sunroof, and go down the road @ about 40-45 mph and test both with a freebag and bridal at full length. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #34 July 28, 2017 Who uses the Vector 1 any more? Not saying that it would be a bad thing if they went back to some thing like that. But that's history at this point. Vector 3's manage to open. And they are a crappy PC. They don't have a big cup at the top of the side flap... LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #35 July 28, 2017 Quote Vector 3's manage to open. And they are a crappy PC. They don't have a big cup at the top of the side flap... The Vector IIs are really close to the Wings in the amount of capture at the top. Lastly, if the Vector Pilot chute was crappy (which it is not by any stretch of the imagination) you would see a lot of reserve PC in tows on the Vector III; which BTW I have never seen or even heard of. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #36 July 28, 2017 The wings is a bit more open at the bottom. And as the wings is a bit more draggy then the vector, and the vector three does not total, clearly the cupped corners at the top of the side flaps of the reserve tray that lock the top of the bag into the container are clearly the problem. QED LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #37 July 29, 2017 Quote QED -QED You have proofed nothing- In fact I proofed the opposite of your claims with the video. Quote clearly the cupped corners at the top of the side flaps of the reserve tray that lock the top of the bag into the container are clearly the problem. As with most problems or incidents, it is not just one single factor. And in this case it is two, the pilot chute and the container. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deyan 31 #38 July 29, 2017 masterrigger1Yes,I think it needs more opening at the corners and a new pilot chute. The pilot chute just sucks eggs.... MEL Mel, Are you aware they've increased the mesh portion of the RPC, by a lot? Cheers!"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #39 July 29, 2017 Quote Mel, Are you aware they've increased the mesh portion of the RPC, by a lot? Cheers! I was not aware that they did that. We simply treat them just like OPT reserves and Racers with speed bags...We do not pack them in my loft anymore. I just checked and do not see an equipment update bulletin, news release, or Service Bulletin anywhere out there. Also there is not a recall on the old ones. It will be interesting to see if it works any better than the old one. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,901 #40 July 30, 2017 I also was not aware of this. And now I'm wondering if I should recommend new p/cs to my customers. And I'd like to know if the part number has been changed. A reserve p/c change like that is significant and customers should have been made aware.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #41 July 30, 2017 Hi Mark, Quotedo not see an equipment update bulletin, news release, or Service Bulletin While I can agree that issuing any of those would be nice, I do not believe that there is any FAA req'ment to do so if it was done as a Minor Change. Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #42 July 30, 2017 Quote While I can agree that issuing any of those would be nice, I do not believe that there is any FAA req'ment to do so if it was done as a Minor Change. Jerry, Agreed IF it was a simple non-life threatening issue. But obviously in this case it is not. Also, there should have been a stand-down on this H/C right after the first reports of PCITs. Something that needs to be discussed in SLC this week. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #43 July 30, 2017 Quote .... A reserve p/c change like that is significant and customers should have been made aware. I could not agree with you more. Responsible riggers/rigging is what makes the difference. Riggers like you that care more about the customer than "offending" the manufacturer makes the rigger world a better place. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #44 July 30, 2017 If the wings is going to be on the agenda could you also raise the real issue of their pattern sets. It would be annoying to retrofit but there is no reason for them to continue forward with a flawed design. LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #45 August 1, 2017 I've been watching this thread with one question - has anybody thought to call the manufacturer and ask about the apparent design change in the reserve PC? I see design changes on rigs year to year - do they have any data on this and would they be willing to share how they classified the scope of this change? While I understand the principle of holding a manufacturer accountable - asking for the data would make more sense than armchair quarterbacking. I rigged at a Wings-dominant DZ for 7 years and sometimes I still struggle to seat the cap tight on very small containers. If anybody is perfect at that then I'll buy them a happy meal and a little paper crown so they can feel special. We had 8 W28 containers (I still have one for my accuracy rig). My only complaints we were successfully able to work through by working with the manufacturer. Again, these issues were addressed early 2000s, so this history. a. Our DZ at the time used spring loaded main PCs. The student wings had very large stiffeners in the top and bottom main flap, and any slack in the main closing loop would result in a total malfunction. We were some of the first/only DZs to use spring loaded student wings, and that was a consequence of taking a sport rig, doubling the size and calling it a student rig. A student had an eventful 15 second (and then some) delay before we grounded our rigs after replicating the failure mode on the ground. b. We also used Single side cutaway/reserve handles - staging and timing between RSL side, nonRSL side, and reserve ripcord was problematic. A DZ is Australia had the same issues. Sunrise converted all our rigs to 2-handle and we modernized our training methods.=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lyosha 46 #46 August 10, 2017 masterrigger1Quote Vector 3's manage to open. And they are a crappy PC. They don't have a big cup at the top of the side flap... The Vector IIs are really close to the Wings in the amount of capture at the top. Lastly, if the Vector Pilot chute was crappy (which it is not by any stretch of the imagination) you would see a lot of reserve PC in tows on the Vector III; which BTW I have never seen or even heard of. MEL Not sure what you're going to be measuring with a Vector RPC at 40 MPH... Lucky for you someone measured PC drag already decades ago. Vector had the lowest drag RPC in test. Doesn't even reach 10 lbs of pressure at 40 mph. http://plabsinc.com/resources/Australian+Parachute+Federation+Main+Pilotchute+Hesitations.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #47 August 10, 2017 Quote Not sure what you're going to be measuring with a Vector RPC at 40 MPH... It's because you don't want to rip your arm off going 80MPH. You can always increase the speed after you get it inflated and trailing behind the vehicle. Quote Lucky for you someone measured PC drag already decades ago. Vector had the lowest drag RPC in test. Doesn't even reach 10 lbs of pressure at 40 mph. Again; go do this test and come back with the results. It is easy enough to do. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcbfly 1 #48 August 17, 2017 After I saw the photos comparing the 2 RPC's I called up Sun Rise and asked about the RPC design change. I had a W8 in my loft and I wanted to know the latest info before I started the I&R. The nice person I spoke to at SRI told me that they had not changed their RPC design, and the one that was installed on the W8 I had -which is the one with minimal mesh- was the correct part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
heavision 2 #49 August 17, 2017 Noobie here. I'm looking to buy my first rig and have been researching my ass off. Probably gonna buy a 2012 Vector III from a guy on this site. But I looked at quite a few Wings rigs too--almost bought one. How big-a-deal is this RPC thing? I saw the words 'design flaw' and 'should be grounded'. Is this just over my head rigger talk, or is it as scary as it sounds? Like, I gotta go change my underwear, man! Talking about RESERVE malfunctions! Yikes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #50 August 18, 2017 Under the right, or wrong, circumstances it can be a problem. LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
