I don't think....

[wmw999 2,116]

I can understand the feeling. Something to consider -- you can't have everything, you have to choose, in whatever life. Some of the good feeling of being in a community of believers is being with them on a regular basis (e.g. going to a church or other activities that are meaningful). If you've started going less because of skydiving (it happens), then it's not surprising that you're missing that other feeling of connection.

God doesn't do things for you (at least not directly, in my viewpoint). He is a presence, and you can either try to stay close to that presence, and bask in it, or you can distance yourself from it. It's an active thing, that you are in charge of.

Like skydiving family, a good church family can help you when things are down. But, like skydiving family, sometimes you have to figure out what you need, and ask for help -- we're lousy mindreaders.

I've lost the church community that I had (the church closed), and it's left a hole that I've filled mostly with other relationships, because I'm a little scared of the level of commitment that I had to my previous church, and, well, a little scared that it, too, would disappear.

None of that has anything to do with God, and a lot to do with people. God is still there as far as I'm concerned, but it takes practice to feel the presence.

Good luck. Sacrifice some Sundays, and go church-shopping if it seems right. Find a church that has some people that you want to hang out with -- you can have both skydiving friends and church friends.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Icon134 0]

OK, I don't generally go to church... not because of skydiving (particularly this time of year) but because I've never been very good at church...

I reciently moved back to my home town area (where I grew up...) and the other day my mother asked me if I had "considered" going to church sometime.

I have had 2 major problems with doing this:

When I was in Geogria I started going to a small church (I grew up and belong to a very large one) I stopped when some advice I recieved from the minister/members of the congegration resulted in some substiantial pain.

The reason I haven't "returned" to my church now that I'm home is because the church has a much older crowd (it's also a much larger crowd) and I have had trouble feeling connecting to them and God in the environment.

(I know... because I don't go to church I'm technically a bad christian...) but until my most recient crisis I have believed that God was everywhere and didn't "feel" like I needed to go to church to experience him...

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[Mike111 0]

if thats where your beliefs take you... follow them.

My beliefs have made me stay away from god and im perfectly happy. Nothing wrong in being atheist same as there is nothing wrong is being devout.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Ermmmm O.......K..... then....(backing away slowly...)

I was talking about "evidence" not trust, but as you mention it....

First off let clear one thing up :

All the people I know and trust are what i like to refer to as "Real" "People" this meaning that they actually "Exist". I know this because i can "See " and "Touch" them, and also they are able to "Talk" to me in "Person" not in my "Mind".......... can the same be said about your god??? the answer is NO

Because of they exist they have be able to demostrate that they are trustworthy, and thus gaining my trust...

OH BOY!! The faith argument again. Don't bother to give the definition of faith, it won't work. I think we went through 15 or so pages in the Christian thread about this.

On second thought, its fun to watch, so carry on.

(by the way, I agree with you)

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[wmw999 2,116]

Not going to church doesn't make you a bad Christian. If the church doesn't help you feel the presence, and you don't find it to be a giving community, then it's the wrong church for you. Maybe there isn't a church for you right now. But if you feel a sense of loss, then try to identify what's missing, and then try to set out a plan to work on getting it back.

Sometimes it's a sense of shared giving. You can bolster that by joining any community of people who give something on a regular basis; the traditional soup kitchen, Habitat for Humanity, recovering vacant lots. People who volunteer regularly tend to be nice, and care about each other -- they're a community. You're helping other people to have a better life, and generally gaining something from it.

The dropzone can do it, particularly if it's not a commercial one that closes as soon as the last student leaves.

Good luck. Spirituality has a lot of faces, and I'm a firm believer in that thought that each of us has this life, and it's important -- it's not just something to get through until the next one. Why would we have it, and be aware, if it weren't important? So live the kind of life you can look back on when you're old, or even that you can continue when you're old.

Nurture yourself, because then you have energy to give. Nurture others, because that's how a sense of community and shared purpose happens, and those are important ways to teach the power of caring for each other.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Darius11 12]

I am not a Christian but we believe in the same God.

People are always asking for evidence of God, I tell them to look around.
Relationship with God is personal. It doesn’t matter if you go to church, you are your church. I know to many Muslims I might not seem that faithful to Islam, but I think they are the ones who have lost track.
Religion has a lot of little things they ask you to do, don’t eat meat on Friday, don’t have sex before marriage, and so on. I think we just need to treat each other fairly, and do the right thing.


Now the questions you have to ask your self is this.
Am I doing the right thing so God will give me stuff? If you answer is yes then you have missed the point.

I try to do the right thing so I can sleep at night, even as a kid if treated someone like shit I felt horrible about it. Now if you don’t pay attention to that voice in your head that tells you right from wrong then it will keep getting quitter and quitter until it’s goon. I am not sure that is a good thing.

Again every thing I have said above is a very brief description of my fait and my point of view on faith.
For me there is not a single moment where I feel that there is no God. I have read a lot of books that try to prove God does not exists but all the reasoning they bring to prove that always makes me believe in God more.

This song by Live kind of somes up how I feel

Quote

LIVE LYRICS

"Heaven"

You don't need no friends
get back your faith again
you have the power to believe
another dissident
take back your evidence
it has no power to deceive

I'll believe it when I see it, for myself

I don't need no one to tell me about heaven
I look at my daughter, and I believe.
I don't need no proof when it comes to God and truth
I can see the sunset and I perceive

I sit with them all night
everything they say is right
but in the morning they were wrong
I'll be right by your side
come hell or water high
down any road you choose to roam

I'll believe it when I see it for myself

I don't need no one to tell me about heaven
I look at my daughter, and I believe.
I don't need no proof when it comes to God and truth
I can see the sunset and I perceive, yeah

darling, I believe, Oh Lord
sometimes it's hard to breathe, Lord
at the bottom of the sea, yeah yeah

I'll believe it when I see it for myself

I don't need no one to tell me about heaven
I look at my daughter, and I believe.
I don't need no proof when it comes to God and truth
I can see the sunset and I perceive

I don't need no one to tell me about heaven
I look at my daughter, and I believe.
I don't need no proof when it comes to God and truth
I can see the sunset
I can see the sunset
I can see the sunset
I don't need no one
Ohhhh
I don't need no one
I don't need no one
I don't need no one
To tell me about heaven
I believe
I believe it, yeah

Good luck

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Icon134 0]

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I try to do the right thing so I can sleep at night, even as a kid if treated someone like shit I felt horrible about it. Now if you don’t pay attention to that voice in your head that tells you right from wrong then it will keep getting quitter and quitter until it’s goon. I am not sure that is a good thing.

This is also why I do the right thing...

My uncle would argue that you should do the right thing because God tells you to do the right thing. Not because it will help you sleep better at night.

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[Andy9o8 0]

Spiritual and/or religious beliefs, by definition, are a subset of a willingness to believe in the existence of the supernatural. They need not necessarily require palpable evidence or proof; thus the saying, “that’s why it’s called faith.”

Most (not all) atheists are atheists not because they weren’t taught or exposed to spirituality; they are atheists because they engage in a process of analysis that ends with the following conclusion (more or less): the supernatural does not exist; and since the supernatural does not exist, and the concept of God is supernatural, therefore God does not exist.

Theists, on the other hand, particularly once they are at or near adulthood, have engaged in a thought process that consists, in some form, and even if only to a limited degree, of a willingness to believe in the existence of the supernatural. They may no longer believe in Santa Claus or that spooks under their beds will come out at night unless the night light’s on, but they do believe in God; and since God is supernatural, that means they’re willing to believe in the existence of the supernatural.

Losing one’s faith in the God in which you have believed is sometimes nothing more than the thought process ending with the conclusion that the supernatural does not exist. But it is not always that way. Sometimes a person loses his faith because he has such a profound disappointment in life that he concludes that God does not or must not exist. (Example: “How could my entire family have been killed in that disaster if God exists? No God would allow that to happen. Therefore God must not exist.”). But that does not mean that, deep down, they no longer have a willingness to believe in the supernatural, in some form.

I think you might need first to establish, in your own mind, what kind of loss of religious faith you are experiencing - a non-emotional conclusion that the supernatural simply does not exist, or a disappointment with life that leads you to doubt your (former?) faith. What path you take from there will, in part, be informed by the answer to that question.

[flyingloom 0]

You should check in to Taoism. No Gods to worship. Get a copy of Tao Teh Ching along with Hua Hu Ching. It's all about connecting with the universe on a much higher level than religion. Taoism is a way of life.
Truth Above Oneself

Truth Among Ourselves

You'll find greater peace in yourself once you read the words in this book.

http://www.flyingloomembroidery.com

[easyglider 0]

You can live a morally sound life with or without theism.

If you feel there is something inherently wrong with a system based on the bible, this online book may be of interest http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/
It's an interesting read whatever your point of view happens to be.

"...it is a telling fact that, the world over, the vast majority of children follow the religion of their parents rather than any of the other available religions." - Clinton Richard Dawkins (1941 - )

[Icon134 0]

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You should check in to Taoism. No Gods to worship. Get a copy of Tao Teh Ching along with Hua Hu Ching. It's all about connecting with the universe on a much higher level than religion.

I have explored it in the past... (in fact I think i have both of those books on my bookshelf.)

Unlike one of my uncles I have been of the opinion that there are many paths to heaven.

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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The reason I haven't "returned" to my church now that I'm home is because the church has a much older crowd (it's also a much larger crowd) and I have had trouble feeling connecting to them and God in the environment.

They say that God is everywhere. Why would a person even need to go to a "church location" to "connect with God"?

Before there were churches, there was God, right? And there were people who had interacted with him and spoken with him etc. At what point did God actually say, "If you don't build a 'church' and then go to IT to worship ME, you are a sinner and I'll send ya to hell"?

Sounds like a lot of bullshit, to me. PEOPLE came up with the idea of churches, and membership, and who-can-excommunicate-who-for-not-following-the-rules. Anyone who wants to be close with God can simply talk to him in their head. Who cares if you go to some over-decorated, money-spent-lavishly "church"? The only ones who care about that are the humans who intend to profit by forcing you to feel that need.


-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Icon134 0]

I agree with that what you've said... That's another reason that I "left" the church I attend in Georgia and have always had "issues" with organized religion...

I often felt guilted if I wasn't "donating" the suggested percentage of my income to the church...

They also had a more literallist point of view to the bible then I liked... Their arguement was that the "profits" which wrote the bible were never influenced by their "personal" beliefs and therefore the bible must be taken literally... but even if I was to learn sanscrit/hebrew/etc... and translate directly from the original scripture my translation would not likely be the same as the guy sitting next to me.

btw: one of the things that they believed and disagreed with was the Patriarchal nature of the church... i.e. Men are supposed to be in charge... women should not be in positions of power in the church they should only be able to influence th church through husbands, etc... The problem that I have with this is that in the time period in which the bible was written the society was Patriarchial in nature... and it stayed that way for many of the centuries following that time period... in fact that area (geographically speaking) is still strongly patricarchial...

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[windcatcher 0]

Negative.
Jeffrey, I don't believe the Bible states "church" is a man made idea.

"Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,which he bought with his own blood." Acts 20:28
Also, I'm not sure which scripture it is, but there's one that says "Forsake not the assembling of the saints."

Anyway, the Church, the Body of Christ, is meant to dwell in unity; when someone doesn't attend church, it could put them out of fellowship with other believers. Jesus said ( I can't find the scripture right now) "wherever two or more are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of thee."
Clearly, God's word places importance of believers meeting together, praying for one another,etc.

I don't believe you have to go to church to have a relationship with God, but I think it's written in God's word for a reason.
Now, do I believe the body of Christ, the Church, represents Jesus the way we are commanded to? Not usually. The Church of Christ has failed in many ways I believe, but that is what happens when you put a bunch of fallible, imperfect human beings together.

There are a lot of rules I don't agree with that some churches follow, but I also don't believe every church out there really preaches God's Holy Word nor does every church show the love of Christ to outsiders who come into their church.
Some churches are messed up, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't attend church. To me,you'll never find the perfect church...because even if it was perfect, it's not going to be perfect once you come along. ( you as in any human being).

Church for me is a place to worship God, experience His presence with other believers, a place to learn His Word, a place of repentance, a place where I can give my $$ ( gasp) ( like it says in God's word to, big surprise, the family of God needs to gather in some buildings) and it's a place to become more "hungry" for Him.

**People can think what they like about their definition of church, as they know it, as they've experienced it...but I have been to some amazing churches where I felt God's presence in a powerful way.

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[Muenkel 0]

Wow, Wendy...beautifully put! Both posts!

Icon, if you're feeling a bit empty spiritually; the best way I have found to become refreshed is to give of myself for the love of God. Try to forget what you can 'get' and focus on what you can 'give'.

Another thing I am guessing you are experiencing is spiritual dryness. Everyone on a path of faith experiences this many times. You just don't feel the warm and fuzzies or perhaps feel or see the presence of God. This is a challenge in life, but a necessary one. This is an opportunity for faith to grow tremendously. It is a time where we can choose to say to God "I don't feel or see your presence right now, but despite that; I am going to forge ahead and live as I know you want me to live".

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[Mockingbird 0]

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Quote

Quote

evidence... wheres that?? there is none .. thats why its called "faith"

a common misconception. Think of someone that really has your trust. What do you base that trust on? Just a hunch about the person, or a warm fuzzy? Or do you have trust in the person because of what you KNOW and have learned about him/her?

It's no different in a relationship to and with God.

Ermmmm O.......K..... then....(backing away slowly...)

I was talking about "evidence" not trust,

Right; but you had faith confused with what some people call "blind faith"-- that is, faith in something for which there is no evidence. Since you don't acknowledge any evidence that God even exists, much less that He can be trusted in because of His character or anything He's done, it makes sense that you would see faith as being blind.

Quote

All the people I know and trust are what i like to refer to as "Real" "People" this meaning that they actually "Exist". I know this because i can "See " and "Touch" them, and also they are able to "Talk" to me in "Person" not in my "Mind".......... can the same be said about your god??? the answer is NO.

So it seems that what you're saying is that you don't believe in the existence of someone whom you can't see, hear, or touch. But I think that someone's existence isn't dependent on your perception or experience of him/her personally. They can and do exist whether you, personally, have seen/heard/touched them or not. I haven't seen/heard/touched God either, but based on other evidence, I know He exists and that He is a real person (or Being with attributes and personality).

[Mockingbird 0]

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OH BOY!! The faith argument again. Don't bother to give the definition of faith, it won't work. I think we went through 15 or so pages in the Christian thread about this.

What can I say???--- if you'd subscribe to the biblical concept of faith (after all, that IS the context in which we are speaking, isn't it?), we wouldn't have to beat a dead horse. As long as you insist that faith is believing in something with your eyes closed, I guess we'll have to keep drilling it.

[br0k3n 0]

(must resist urge to get sucked into religion debate)

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based on other evidence

go on then, what evidence is this???

-----------------------------------------------------------
--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[br0k3n 0]

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As long as you insist that faith is believing in something with your eyes closed, I guess we'll have to keep drilling it.

In its proper sense faith means trusting the word of another. Therefore I guess " Believing in something with your eyes closed" is not incorrect ...

-----------------------------------------------------------
--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[Mockingbird 0]

Quote

(must resist urge to get sucked into religion debate)

Quote

based on other evidence

go on then, what evidence is this???

Ya' know, I don't know if I'm up to making myself into a target tonight. We've discussed the subjects of evidence and faith in the other thread ("I am a Christian..."), and every time a Christian cites evidence on which his/her faith is based, the "opponents" minimize, put down... and that pretty much shuts down any objective discussion.

But here are some statements by disciples and friends of Christ, who talk about being eyewitnesses to the truth of what Jesus said and did. It's a copy & paste from a "Sticky" on my desktop, so it might be kinda' lengthy. And this will be about all that I'll say on the subject of specific evidence (eyewitness testimony), tho' I'm more than happy to PM about it with anyone who wants to.

**********************
John 20:30-32 (New International Version)
30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 19:35 (Amplified)
And he who saw it (the eyewitness) gives this evidence, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he tells the truth, that you may believe also.

1 John 1 (New International Version)
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our[a] joy complete.


Luke 1 (New Living Translation)
1 Most honorable Theophilus:  Many people have written accounts about the events that took place[a] among us. 2They used as their source material the reports circulating among us from the early disciples and other eyewitnesses of what God has done in fulfillment of his promises. 3Having carefully investigated all of these accounts from the beginning, I have decided to write a careful summary for you, 4to reassure you of the truth of all you were taught.


2 Peter 1:13-20 (New International Version)
13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.
16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.
19And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place,

2 Peter 1:17 Matt. 17:5; Mark 9:7; Luke 9:35


Acts 1:7-9 (New International Version)
7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

Acts 2:32
God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.

Acts 3:15
You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

Acts 5:32
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."


Acts 10:39-42 (New International Version)
39 "We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree,
40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.


Acts 13:31
"and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.


1 Corinthians 15:11-17 (New International Version)
11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.


John 1:3-13 (New International Version)
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.


John 8:12-19 (New International Version)
The Validity of Jesus' Testimony
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."

14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"


Acts 1:21-23 (New International Version)
21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."

23So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias.




Acts 22:10-16 (New International Version)
10"'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked.
"'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.' 11My companions led me by the hand into Damascus, because the brilliance of the light had blinded me.

12"A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13He stood beside me and said, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight!' And at that very moment I was able to see him.

14"Then he said: 'The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.



Acts 26:13-18 (New International Version)
13About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[a] 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
15"Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?'
" 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

**********************
I don't know why some of the text came out in bold print.

[ROK 0]

NEVER stop believing!

Read the book of "Job". God let the devil put some heavy hurt on him, and he never quit believing.

Most people have a hard time pinning down when they started to believe, and most will tell you that they have for as long as they can remember.

I believe that we are in a time of polarization. I feel the doubt at times myself, but you can't give in.

For the athesist...My words are based on faith. A faith that has always come through for me in the end. You can smack me with the science books, and tell me that I have "invisible friends", but it won't change the fact that I know there is a God.

[Mockingbird 0]

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In its proper sense faith means trusting the word of another.

Since we're talking about faith in the context of Christianity and the bible, it only makes sense to attach the biblical meaning to it. Some dictionaries present the word as the bible does; others don't.

[Mockingbird 0]

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OK, I don't generally go to church... not because of skydiving (particularly this time of year) but because I've never been very good at church...

I reciently moved back to my home town area (where I grew up...) and the other day my mother asked me if I had "considered" going to church sometime.

I have had 2 major problems with doing this:

When I was in Geogria I started going to a small church (I grew up and belong to a very large one) I stopped when some advice I recieved from the minister/members of the congegration resulted in some substiantial pain.

The reason I haven't "returned" to my church now that I'm home is because the church has a much older crowd (it's also a much larger crowd) and I have had trouble feeling connecting to them and God in the environment.

(I know... because I don't go to church I'm technically a bad christian...) but until my most recient crisis I have believed that God was everywhere and didn't "feel" like I needed to go to church to experience him...

I totally hear you, Icon. I haven't been to church in years. For somewhat the same reasons... Unfortunately there are advantages and disadvantages... to both sides. Sometimes, it's just.... complicated.

[br0k3n 0]

Ah Common now, we all know the bible isnt proof....

Why doesn't God place a glowing cross in the sky at night to serve as irrefutable proof of Jesus??? why is all we have a 2000 year old book which no one can prove fact or fiction.

Answer me that..........

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[rasmack 0]

Now, you have just been shown that the Bible is right. It says so right there in the Bible. If you don't believe it, just read the Bible.

Seriously: Faith is not and should not be a matter of proof. If you choose to believe, fine. But don't quote scripture and call it "proof".

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...