Do you oppose same-sex marriage for religious reasons?

[MC208B 0]

I could be wrong about the initial legality of what the gang of four did Shotgun. Meeting with gay rights groups in secret for several months prior to decreeing that not letting gays get married violated the Oregon constitution and keeping the fifth comissioner completely in the dark is just plain wrong. These were county comissioners, not judges mind you.

The gay marriage thing in the bay area flamed out (pun intended) also didn't it?

Personally, I think that gay marriage is wrong. That's just my own opinion not a religous viewpoint.

If you or anyone else here has a different opinion, that's okay with me too. I'm not one of those people that feel if you don't agree with my opinion, then you're wrong.

[narcimund 0]

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I'm not one of those people that feel if you don't agree with my opinion, then you're wrong.

That might be true but you ARE one of those people who feel other peoples' marriages should be subject to your approval.

And that's much worse.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Shotgun 1]

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Personally, I think that gay marriage is wrong. That's just my own opinion not a religous viewpoint.

Why do you think that gay marriage is wrong? (That's an honest question; I'm really trying to understand why people are opposed to it if not for religious reasons.) And do you think that homosexuals should be denied the right to marriage just because a lot of people think that gay marriage is wrong?

Personally, I feel that allowing same-sex marriage does not really affect anyone other than the same-sex couple getting married, so I don't understand why a lot of people feel so strongly about banning it. Sort of like marijuana prohibition... a case of the moral majority inflicting their idea of morals on the entire population when the subject in question poses no real threat to those who oppose it.

[mnealtx 0]

Where did he say that? He said he disagrees with the concept, not that it shouldn't be allowed.

YOU are saying "If you don't agree with me, you're wrong and a bigot."

You (understandably) have a huge chip on your shoulder over the issue - the shame is that you let it affect your view of anyone that disagrees with you.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[narcimund 0]

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You (understandably) have a huge chip on your shoulder over the issue - the shame is that you let it affect your view of anyone that disagrees with you.

Close your eyes for a second ... open your empthy for a MEAGER second ... and imagine if YOUR marriage were put up to a popular vote of bigots? Can you picture that? Can you suspend disbelief enough to encompass that RIDICULOUS fiction? How absolutely grotesque! How ludicrous and outright PREPOSTEROUS an experience that would be!

Can you imagine a million superstitious bigots pointing at you and your spouse holding hands and saying "Nope, rejected. Not good enough"?

Ok. You can open your eyes now. Back to your nice reality where you can marry the person you fall in love with without subjecting your choice to the approval of people who act largely out of hatred, fear, loathing, and cruelty.

Remember that little nightmare you just had? I lived that. Tell me I shouldn't be angry? RIGHTEOUSLY furious!

No tell me again sir, how should I view those people?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[RhondaLea 3]

Oh dear.

Has this turned into one of those threads?

I stayed out because I thought Keely just wanted to get some information for a paper from a specific group of people, and my views weren't relevant to that.

I see now I need to go catch up before the thread gets locked.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[mnealtx 0]

I have NO issues concerning your anger with people that are actually bigoted against you. Your posts, if not your thoughts, ARE equally as bigoted against people that do not agree with your line of thought.

You want - no, you DEMAND the freedom to marry as you wish, but at the same time deny the freedom of anyone else to think differently than you do.

That, Sir, is not fair to yourself, nor to them.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[K763 0]

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If more people were to be truly honest in answering this question, I believe the predominant answer would be, "Because the idea of two men having sex gives me wood and I don't know how to deal with it so I say ban it."

That's it in a nutshell!!! Thanks Keith!

Oh, by the way, I have a very lonely friend up here in the horsey area of Perris...do you like white older handy men????

Peace,
Karen

[britboynz 0]

You may be interested in what happened here in NZ:

We've had civil unions on the statute books for almost a year now (in NZ civil unions are open to anyone, gay or straight). The sky didn't fall in, despite the religious right's protestations that this would be the end of society as we know it.

During the initial stages of debate/consultation, the NZ govt decided that a Civil union, with the SAME rights and responsibilities of marriage would be the best way forward as they thought that ammending the Marriage Act to allow gays to actually get married, would be too difficult to get through parliament/too unpalatable to the NZ public.

What they did instead was introduce the civil union bill and a companion bill which ammended hundreds of other acts of law (everything from tax, immigration, pensions, even defence law) so that wherever the word 'spouse' cropped up, the words 'or civil union partner' were added. This means that a civil union has Exactly the same legal standing as a marriage.

I actually think the NZ govt couldn't have done any better - they managed to get the legislation through without it being torpedoed by the religious right, yet still giving us equal rights. For me personally, why would I want to get 'married' anyway? Marriage has too many religious connotations.

It saddens me when I hear of all the shit that is going on in the US (ie president planning on a constitution ammendment, against a section of his own people) BUT in the US it almost seems if you're after 'all or nothing' (ie gay marriage, at all costs).

Surely a better compromise would be something like a civil union/partnership which gives you legal recognition of your relationship, and doesn't piss off the religious lot as you're not getting 'married'?

Russ

[RhondaLea 3]

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Where did he say that? He said he disagrees with the concept, not that it shouldn't be allowed.

It would be a rare event for someone who disagrees with a concept not to vote against it if the issue arises in that context.

People can think whatever they want, but when their thoughts are given an outlet, consequences arise. How would you like to be at the mercy of someone who disagrees with you when you know that they have the means to control how you live your life?

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YOU are saying "If you don't agree with me, you're wrong and a bigot."

In a case where someone has the ability to control my fate against my will, I think that might be my take on the situation.

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You (understandably) have a huge chip on your shoulder over the issue - the shame is that you let it affect your view of anyone that disagrees with you.

Calling it a "chip on the shoulder" minimizes the real-life consequences I've stated above.

We're not just talking about thoughts, but the ability of people to convert their thoughts to action. And the result of that was a limitation on his freedom to do something you and I take for granted.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[MC208B 0]

Gay people in the NW do not have equal rights, they have special rights. Several governments and companies there extend insurance coverage to homosexual couples and do not extend the same benefits to unmarried hetro couples.

This is a bit off topic, I know.

As for the original poster of this thread, I can't put my finger on the reason why I don't feel gay marraige is right, it just isn't to me. I'm sure that a big part of it is nature, men and women made for one another etc. and of course thousands of years of tradition.

Narcimund, I don't know you but I'm pretty sure that outside of what you consider a "bigoted" society, you and your partner are pretty happy. Maybe you should try to appreciate what you do have?!?

[mnealtx 0]

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We're not just talking about thoughts, but the ability of people to convert their thoughts to action. And the result of that was a limitation on his freedom to do something you and I take for granted

Agreed - and again, I'm not taking issue with how they were treated - he has every right to be mad as hell about it.

The point I was trying to make is that he is lumping everyone that doesn't automatically and enthusiastically agree with him into the "bigot group" - which in itself is pretty bigoted.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[narcimund 0]

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Narcimund, I don't know you but I'm pretty sure that outside of what you consider a "bigoted" society, you and your partner are pretty happy. Maybe you should try to appreciate what you do have?!?

Why thank you! We're very happy together and we have great lives. I appreciate what we have tremendously.

That being said, telling me to just appreciate it sounds a lot like telling someone to ignore something you're doing awful to them: "Don't pay attention to this mugging -- just think about the great breakfast you had."

Those who do injustice would find it more convenient if I and others like me would just shut up. I'm willing to inconvenience them to that extent.

I'm also complex enough to occasionally sit at the computer and tell the bigots among dropzone.com exactly how full of shit they are and then STILL go off and enjoy my life. Imagine that.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[narcimund 0]

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The point I was trying to make is that he is lumping everyone that doesn't automatically and enthusiastically agree with him into the "bigot group" - which in itself is pretty bigoted.

Find me a person who quietly believes in the inferiority of homosexuals yet does NOT contribute to the actions that disadvantage us, and I'll exempt that person from my criticism.

Otherwise, those who vote against gay marriage, beat gay people, and teach their children bigotry can go to hell.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[ROK 0]

When you figure out how we as humans can sit back and appreciate what we do have, let me know.

Put me in a room full of people and give everyone two jump tickets, but only give me one. I'm going to wonder what the hell is up!

I think the bottom line is that if we can't empathize with someone, or with a group of people, their needs and wants are just about meaningless to us. My religion states that homosexuality is wrong. One more push towards the "no" vote. A lot of parents teach that homosexuality is wrong. Another push towards a "no" vote.

I can understand where the return hate comes from.

To put it into perspective...skydivers as a percentage of the population are a very small group. If a vote went out asking if we should be aloud to use various airports for our DZ's, and the majority voted no, I'd be pretty bitter and pissed off.

I understand where people who want to marry same sex partners are coming from, but the advise about learning to appreciate what you do have is probably about the best I've seen.

[mnealtx 0]

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Otherwise, those who vote against gay marriage, beat gay people, and teach their children bigotry can go to hell.

You're doing exactly what you say you're against, and you can't even see it.

"You can't be bigoted against me, but I can be bigoted against you if you don't agree with me."

Nice win-win moral situation you have going on, there... you get to have your righteous outrage regardless of which way it turns out.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[RhondaLea 3]

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You're doing exactly what you say you're against, and you can't even see it.

No, Mike, he isn't.

His attitude isn't going to change what happens to them. It's all thought. There's no vote he can cast that's going to change their lives or limit their freedom to marry.

But those same people have real power over his life. This has already been demonstrated.

That's the difference.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[narcimund 0]

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You're doing exactly what you say you're against, and you can't even see it.

Do you really fail to see the difference between

A) those who attack others with violence and lawmaking

and

B) those who disapprove of the attackers

?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[MC208B 0]

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Quote

The point I was trying to make is that he is lumping everyone that doesn't automatically and enthusiastically agree with him into the "bigot group" - which in itself is pretty bigoted.

Find me a person who quietly believes in the inferiority of homosexuals yet does NOT contribute to the actions that disadvantage us, and I'll exempt that person from my criticism.

Otherwise, those who vote against gay marriage, beat gay people, and teach their children bigotry can go to hell.

Guess most prople are full of shit and can go to hell (which I doubt that you believe in) then.

You missed my point how many companies, government agencies, etc. are giving gays rights that hetros don't have.

Perhaps you're just ignoring it.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

You're doing exactly what you say you're against, and you can't even see it.

Do you really fail to see the difference between

A) those who attack others with violence and lawmaking

and

B) those who disapprove of the attackers

?

Negative, Ghostrider - you're jumping to conclusions, again.

MC208B said:

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Personally, I think that gay marriage is wrong. That's just my own opinion not a religous viewpoint.

If you or anyone else here has a different opinion, that's okay with me too. I'm not one of those people that feel if you don't agree with my opinion, then you're wrong.

Please show me where MC208B is "attacking you with violence or lawmaking" - I'd really like to see where you got that idea from his post.

Like it or not, you *ARE* treating him as if he has actively attacked you, simply by stating he doesn't agree with your agenda.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[narcimund 0]

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Guess most prople are full of shit and can go to hell ... then.

Yes.

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You missed my point how many companies, government agencies, etc. are giving gays rights that hetros don't have.

Perhaps you're just ignoring it.

I ignored it because it's a dumb little point.

If there are actual examples of written governmental policies that grant actual rights only to homosexuals I'd be very interested to know about them. I can't think of any but I'm sure anything you come up with will be a vague echo of a right heterosexuals have in full.

And this is tantamount to stealing my dollar and refunding a nickle then complaining that I get free nickles.

And hell, I haven't even received my nickle yet!

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[narcimund 0]

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MC208B said:

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Personally, I think that gay marriage is wrong. That's just my own opinion not a religous viewpoint.

Please show me where MC208B is "attacking you with violence or lawmaking" - I'd really like to see where you got that idea from his post.

Rhonda Lea said:

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It would be a rare event for someone who disagrees with a concept not to vote against it if the issue arises in that context.

Her reasoning is dead on. When someone tells me, "I believe what you're doing is wrong," in the context of a vote to prevent me from doing it, it's a fair assumption.

However, all presumptions are rebuttable. If he wants to say that he did NOT vote against gay marriage (or even better that he voted for it) I'll be happy to apologize for my error. I'll also be fascinated by his apparently inconsistent behavior and want to hear all about how he made that decision.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Andy9o8 0]

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Gay people in the NW do not have equal rights, they have special rights. Several governments and companies there extend insurance coverage to homosexual couples and do not extend the same benefits to unmarried hetro couples.

You forget that the companies that do that, do so in the context of a society in which formal, legally-sanctioned gay marriage does not exist in the first place. So the company tries to level the playing field by using what I'm sure it realizes is an imperfect solution, but at least it's doing its best to try with what tools are available to it. If you feel that it's unfair for companies to give benefits to unmarried gay couples, but not to unmarried hetero couples, then that's all the more reason why formal gay marriage should be supported. That way, you, or an employer, would be able to say to a gay employee: "You and your partner want couples benefits? OK, then do what the rest of us have to do when we want them - make the commitment and get married." As it now stands, a hetero couple that wants the privileges and benefits accorded to a couple has option to get married. But gay couples aren't given that option. So to condemn the concept of formalizing gay marriage, while also condemning the practice of companies giving benefits to gay couples, really puts the gay couple in a lose-lose position.

[livendive 8]

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hey, why not take the government out of the marriage business all together.

Hear, hear! That's what I'd like to see.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[sundevil777 93]

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As for the original poster of this thread, I can't put my finger on the reason why I don't feel gay marraige is right, it just isn't to me.

Just go back to Narcimund's first post on page 1 and you'll find out everything you need to know about your rational and how wrong it is, and how small minded you are, blah, blah. He spent a lot of time to explain why people oppose same sex marriage, so don't trouble yourself with trying to explain your thoughts, it is already done for you.

At the same time that we are bothering to examine why gay marriage is opposed, why not consider why polygamy is illegal? Some will quickly say that it also should be legalized, but certainly not everyone. Why not, the same arguments apply.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am