Can someone tell me why you need to get drug tested for a non manual/dangerous job

[RhondaLea 3]

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Thanks for the story. I agree, when someone is in a position of authority for the care and well being of people, test them. Nurses, doctors, pilots, subway and bus drivers, school teachers etc. However, why would someone care whether a computer programmer or stockbroker or fishmonger is high? If that person performs their job inline with the performance targets they have been set - or exceeds them - whats the big deal?

If anyone, regardless of the kind of job they hold, performs their job inline with performance targets, what's the big deal?

There's an erroneous assumption in what you wrote. If we think that drugs do not affect performance, then they affect no one's performance. It doesn't matter if you're a nurse or a stockbroker, a pilot or a fishmonger. But if they do affect performance, then I don't want you sticking a needle in me, and I don't want you deciding how my money is to be invested. I don't want you flying the airplane I'm on, and I don't want you fileting the flounder I'm going to eat.

I know two different people who do weird things to food when they're drunk/high. They both leave stuff like spaghetti sauce out overnight and then use it the next day. I don't eat food prepared by either one, because I'm afraid that their food preparation practices while fucked up will make me sick.

That's just an example. Even people in non-dangerous, non-manual jobs can do a lot of damage to others.

Drug tests are an invasion of one's privacy, it's true. And on that ground, I object to them. But the prospective victims of the "stoned at work" have rights too, and I think my right to be safe from fucked up people trumps their right to privacy about just how fucked up they are.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[RhondaLea 3]

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I rather think I'm angling for a trampling.

You're awfully brave for a guy who lives only two hours (or less) down the highway.

Wait wait wait wait wait... you didn't fuckin' tell me that!!

[Newbie 0]

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Thanks for the story. I agree, when someone is in a position of authority for the care and well being of people, test them. Nurses, doctors, pilots, subway and bus drivers, school teachers etc. However, why would someone care whether a computer programmer or stockbroker or fishmonger is high? If that person performs their job inline with the performance targets they have been set - or exceeds them - whats the big deal?

If anyone, regardless of the kind of job they hold, performs their job inline with performance targets, what's the big deal?

There's an erroneous assumption in what you wrote. If we think that drugs do not affect performance, then they affect no one's performance. It doesn't matter if you're a nurse or a stockbroker, a pilot or a fishmonger. But if they do affect performance, then I don't want you sticking a needle in me, and I don't want you deciding how my money is to be invested. I don't want you flying the airplane I'm on, and I don't want you fileting the flounder I'm going to eat.

I know two different people who do weird things to food when they're drunk/high. They both leave stuff like spaghetti sauce out overnight and then use it the next day. I don't eat food prepared by either one, because I'm afraid that their food preparation practices while fucked up will make me sick.

That's just an example. Even people in non-dangerous, non-manual jobs can do a lot of damage to others.

Drug tests are an invasion of one's privacy, it's true. And on that ground, I object to them. But the prospective victims of the "stoned at work" have rights too, and I think my right to be safe from fucked up people trumps their right to privacy about just how fucked up they are.

rl

The difference is, you are talking about being under the influence at work. I'm talking about being under the influence off work, and then not on a high/low/drunk when you go back to work. I think there is a difference, and, i also think tests should be stringent for those jobs where people have a designated clear cut amount of authority, and where peoples lives are at stake - medical care, public transportation workers etc. Even if we are talking about people who are under the influence while on the job, someone who is high serving you a piece of salmon in the supermarket is not in a position to kill you like how a stoned/drunk airline pilot is.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[PLFXpert 0]

I would have said the true irony is the highest percentage of drug users in the workplace (mostly marijuana) is in the very heavy-machinery/construction-type jobs the original poster referred to---and most do not requiring testing--usually b/c if a worker is injured it is required by worker's comp to be tested w/in 24 hours. If they test positive, neither the employer nor the insurance company has to pay the claim. Not drug-testing keeps the worker's comp premium lower.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Nearly all jobs carry a responsibility in some way or another, if you don't think someone serving you salmon at Tescos can kill you through some act of negligence, think again.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like drug testing either (with good reason), I get drug tested going offshore from time to time, but thats a random kinda thing, unless they have reason to test someone in particular.

I guess if you don't like your conditions, don't work for them.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Jimbo 0]

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Who are they to say what i can and can't do when i'm not on the clock so long as it doesn't affect my performance at work?

The people offering you a job. It's their house, you play by their rules.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[mnealtx 0]

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what kind of question is that? how about drugs might influence your productivity/punctuality? go buy Vales detox, works like a charm.

No detox works against a hair test, which is what more and more companies are starting to use these days - mostly because of detox kits.

Hair tests can also tell if you WERE stoning up and just got straight for the interview....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Who are they to say what i can and can't do when i'm not on the clock so long as it doesn't affect my performance at work?

The people offering you a job. It's their house, you play by their rules.

-
Jim

Yes, well WHY is it considered FAIR GAME for them to care about what you do on your own time in the first place?!

Forget about whether they are allowed to make these stipulations. IS IT [I]RIGHT[/I] FOR THEM TO INTRUDE THIS WAY IN THE FIRST PLACE?


I say No.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[RhondaLea 3]

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Yes, well WHY is it considered FAIR GAME for them to care about what you do on your own time in the first place?!

How do they know you're not going to do it on their time?

And I'll tell you something, depending on the drug, someone coming down may be less competent than someone who is high.

This is a very thorny issue.

Given the choice, I would decriminalize all drug use, but I would also impose much stricter penalties on those who do inappropriate things under the influence, e.g., driving, performing tasks for an employer.

I don't really care what you did last night, but if you get high on the way to work, you should lose your license and your job.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[rehmwa 2]

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Given the choice, I would decriminalize all drug use, but I would also impose much stricter penalties on those who do inappropriate things under the influence, e.g., driving, performing tasks for an employer.

I don't really care what you did last night, but if you get high on the way to work, you should lose your license and your job.

Even though my personal position is that any kind of recreational drug use is a huge waste and kind of stupid, I completely agree with the above. Decriminalize all of it, but allow parents the freedom to protect their kids from it and employers the freedom to protect their interests by allowing them to make their own rules - no matter how arbitrary they want to be. For employers, if they are too restrictive for the average worker the hiring market will take the natural effect.

My worry, is that decriminalization will then evolve into further laws which will force companies to hire and retain people they don't want. That would stink.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Newbie 0]

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Yes, well WHY is it considered FAIR GAME for them to care about what you do on your own time in the first place?!

How do they know you're not going to do it on their time?

And I'll tell you something, depending on the drug, someone coming down may be less competent than someone who is high.

This is a very thorny issue.

Given the choice, I would decriminalize all drug use, but I would also impose much stricter penalties on those who do inappropriate things under the influence, e.g., driving, performing tasks for an employer.

I don't really care what you did last night, but if you get high on the way to work, you should lose your license and your job.

rl

Yeah that;s true, i guess a test doesn't reveal WHEN you took it - only that it's in your system.

Would you really decriminalise crack?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[unformed 0]

Some tests, specifically hair follicle tests, can tell when cetain drugs were taken.

This ad space for sale.

[RhondaLea 3]

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Would you really decriminalise crack?

I would decriminalize all "victimless" crimes, so yes. I believe that an individual has the unlimited right to control his own body. If you want to kill yourself, go for it.

What I would punish is crime against others. Relentlessly.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Newbie 0]

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Would you really decriminalise crack?

I would decriminalize all "victimless" crimes, so yes. I believe that an individual has the unlimited right to control his own body. If you want to kill yourself, go for it.

What I would punish is crime against others. Relentlessly.

rl

Crack and smack (heroin) heads it has been proven, leads to massive increases in street crime (mugging) and burglary in the associated areas because of the need for people to get a "hit".
What happens when you can't get an ambulance because some smack head has OD'ed? That sort of Class A drug use has many victims associated to it than the 18 year old skater smoking a bowl and playing video games at his friends house.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[RhondaLea 3]

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Crack and smack (heroin) heads it has been proven, leads to massive increases in street crime (mugging) and burglary in the associated areas because of the need for people to get a "hit".
What happens when you can't get an ambulance because some smack head has OD'ed? That sort of Class A drug use has many victims associated to it than the 18 year old skater smoking a bowl and playing video games at his friends house.

And where do we get these statistics in a society where these drugs are illegal?
I don't believe that the decriminalization of drugs will lead to an increase in their use, particularly by addicts. If anything, I suspect that in some places, there will be fewer people picking up the habit. The forbidden has an allure that what is allowed does not.

We should be prosecuting the street crime, not the drug use. Smack heads are going to OD whether it's legal or not.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[freethefly 6]

All this banter on pot smokers and such is all crap. Truth is a large portion of the work force smoke weed and are highly productive people. The portion of the work force that are the least productive are those who use alcohol. My last factory job it was appearant who were the least productive yet no one was dropping random breath testing. I myself would take several onehits in the morning to bring my appetite up, eat a huge breakfast and head to work. At no time did my use of mj ever affect my performance. The same could not be said for those who would go home at the end of the day and drink beer or whatever. Often at lunch, I left the factory and went to my car and had a few hits and headed to a fast food joint for a sack of burgers, ate large went back to the factory and busted my ass working. All the while one could see the drinkers who were sluggish throughout the day. If I were to test foor anything it would be alcohol. I would test each and every person as they came through the door before they clocked in. Anyone who so much as showed just a trace of alcohol on their breath would be fired on the spot. With 15% of the work force going to work under the influence of alcohol why not put a breathanalyzer at the door? Alcohol accounts for more lost time and injuries than all the drugs put together. On another note, I was the only person in the factory allowed to have THC in my system as I did have an prescription for Marinol. In my work area I was the most productive, always on time, never hungover, never complained. It was the same for those who also used only mj. The same could not be said for those who only used alcohol. Even the skydive community is alright with alcohol and many are down on pot smokers. How many times have you boarded a plane in the morning hours and seen hungover jumpers and even hungover tandemn masters. Breath testing should be given every morning. Tandemn masters should be barred from using alcohol. Alcohol is the #1 cause of problems in society and should be banned, period.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[mnealtx 0]

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My worry, is that decriminalization will then evolve into further laws which will force companies to hire and retain people they don't want. That would stink.

We already have that - think "hiring quotas".

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[lawrocket 3]

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The big bullshit fallacy of your statement is the fact that these kinds of policies end up spreading to more and more and more and more and more of the good places to work.

Yes, they do. Reason? Because of hard lessons learned by the employers. As an employer, shit I would have thought was not a problem two years ago is a BIG problem now.

It's called ignorance of a potential problem. Once you get screwed, you say, "I should have seen that coming." Then you say, "NOW I understand why my competitors do what they do." So you change your course and start doing it.

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Eventually there will be only shit jobs for those who value their privacy and object to these bullshit, needless, ineffective intrusions.

Not necessarily. There's always the opportunity to create jobs yourself. You can go into business on your own and do things your waym being perhaps the only cool employer around. You will have lots of applicants. Odds are, you'll begin the process of firing and begin finding certain personality traits and activities that you determine to be troublesome.

Jeffrey, I respect your opinion. I used to think just like you. Also like you, I have never, ever touched an illegal drug. And I objected to even the thought of employee drug testing as an invasion of my privacy (but not of my "right to privacy" - there's a big difference in context).

Somehow, my viewpoint and opinion on things changed dramatically within months of being an employer. It has to do with understanding those stresses and pressures. Do I understand that employees have issues? Yep. Do I care? Nope.

HEck, back in November I had a conversation with an old boss and asked him point blank, "Why didn't you fire me? Jim, I look back and I was terrible." HE laughed and said, "You needed training, and that's expected. You were no worse than we expected, and you did need improvement, but that takes time." He was a cooler boss than I thought he was when I worked for him. He's more patient than I am. I would have fired myself fucking quickly!

Folks - learn to understand your bosses. A little too much effort is put on trying to make bosses understand the employees. Well, 99 percent of us were employees at some point. We understand it.

Experience, however, has shown us what really goes on. And before we protect your asses, we're gonna cover our own.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Marijuana Triggers Schizophrenia-Like Symptoms
from Yale University News Release

Cannabis Can Trigger Transient Reactions in the Brain
The principal active ingredient in marijuana causes transient schizophrenia-like symptoms ranging from suspiciousness and delusions to impairments in memory and attention, according to a Yale research study.
Lead author D. Cyril D'Souza, M.D., associate professor of psychiatry at Yale School of Medicine, said the study was an attempt to clarify a long known association between cannabis and psychosis in the hopes of finding another clue about the pathophysiology of schizophrenia.

"Just as studies with amphetamines and ketamine advanced the notion that brain systems utilizing the chemical messengers dopamine and NMDA receptors may be involved in the pathophysiology in schizophrenia, this study provides some tantalizing support for the hypotheses that the brain receptor system that cannabis acts on may be involved in the pathophysiology of schizophrenia," he said. "Clearly, further work is needed to test this hypothesis."

D'Souza and his co-researchers administered various doses of delta-9-THC, the main active ingredient in cannabis, to subjects who were screened for any vulnerability to schizophrenia. Some subjects developed symptoms resembling those of schizophrenia that lasted approximately one half hour to one hour.

These symptoms included suspiciousness, unusual thoughts, paranoia, thought disorder, blunted affect, reduced spontaneity, reduced interaction with the interviewer, and problems with memory and attention. THC also induced euphoria and increased levels of the stress hormone cortisol. There were no side effects in the study participants one, three and six months after the study.

The findings of this study go along with several other lines of evidence that suggest a contribution of cannabis and/or abnormalities in the brain cannabinoid receptor system to the pathophysiology of schizophrenia.

Co-authors included Edward Perry, M.D., Lisa MacDougal, Yola Ammerman, Yu-Te Wu, Gabriel Braley, Ralitza Gueorguieva, and John Krystal, M.D., of Yale, and Thomas Cooper of Columbia College of Physicians and Surgeons.


http://alcoholism.about.com/od/pot/a/blacer040615.htm
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Here's a good reason.

[freethefly 6]

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Would you really decriminalise crack?

I would decriminalize all "victimless" crimes, so yes. I believe that an individual has the unlimited right to control his own body. If you want to kill yourself, go for it.

What I would punish is crime against others. Relentlessly.

rl

Mj and only mj

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[RhondaLea 3]

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Mj and only mj

Your experience with pot is good. Not everyone has the same experience. I can't smoke it because it makes me damn near catatonic.

I know lots of people who think that they're "normal" or "more creative" or when they're high.

I'm here to tell you that what you think of yourself when you're stoned and what others think of you may be very different.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm here to tell you that what you think of yourself when you're stoned and what others think of you may be very different.

and I'm here make shadow puppets on the wall

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Mj and only mj

Your experience with pot is good. Not everyone has the same experience. I can't smoke it because it makes me damn near catatonic.

I know lots of people who think that they're "normal" or "more creative" or when they're high.

I'm here to tell you that what you think of yourself when you're stoned and what others think of you may be very different.

rl

Are you suggesting pot users might be psychotic while high?

[christoofar 0]

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what kind of question is that? how about drugs might influence your productivity/punctuality? go buy Vales detox, works like a charm.

No detox works against a hair test, which is what more and more companies are starting to use these days - mostly because of detox kits.

Hair tests can also tell if you WERE stoning up and just got straight for the interview....

That's easy to get around. Just go get a wax and go shave your head. And I am NOT about to let an employer have access to my pubes unless they're gonna give me a free blowjob FIRST.

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[mnealtx 0]

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Are you suggesting pot users might be psychotic while high?

I'd suggest that a self assessment of skills/performance while stoned might be skewed...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706