What is wrong with criminal punishment these days?! Why are "we" so friggin' soft?!

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

They're gonna release the guy who shot the pope"

Unbelievable.

It's not unlike allowing John Hinckley Jr. out of prison to visit his folks, after his conviction for attempting to assassinate Ronald Reagan.

If you can attempt to murder a head of state and still be allowed to leave prison before your corpse stiffens, there is something wrong with the way our society dispenses justice.


-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[SkyDekker 1,405]

Uhmmm, he was already pardoned for that crime by the Italian head of state...

He was then transfered to Turkey to serve a sentence for another crime, he has finished serving that sentence.....

[artistcalledian 0]

he should have been given a medal for trying to kill the pope, not put in jail

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[waltappel 1]

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he should have been given a medal for trying to kill the pope, not put in jail

Oh please, you can do much better than that. I'm a bit disappointed.

Walt

[RhondaLea 4]

John Paul II, who later met Agca in prison, publicly forgave him three days after the May 13, 1981...

That might have something to do with the pardon he received....

Agca's attorney, Mustafa Demirbag, said Agca will be freed Thursday morning from jail and will go directly to a military post to begin military service, which is required under Turkish law.

...and this has a possibility of being productive.

I dunno.

My general theory is that it isn't intentions, stated intentions or outcomes that count so much as actions. Under that theory, the fact that he shot the Pope is enough to keep him in jail.

But the Pope lived, and his action was to be forgiving. I don't know how to argue with that, given the course this seems to be taking.

It will be interesting to see what happens next.

rl, on the fence

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Uhmmm, he was already pardoned for that crime by the Italian head of state...

He was then transfered to Turkey to serve a sentence for another crime, he has finished serving that sentence.....

So you're acknowledging that he tried to kill the Pope, and he was a murderer ALREADY...

Here's a guy who really should be let out of prison.

What the FUCK, people?!

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

So if a guy is clearly a murderer and/or attempted murderer, you don't mind him being let out into society again -- a risk to you and yours -- just because his victims' family and/or would-be victim FORGIVES him?


-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[dropoutdave 0]

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a risk to you and yours

Not exactly, he's in Turkey, i'm in England, I aint scared o that fool.

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May Contain Nut traces......

[RhondaLea 4]

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So if a guy is clearly a murderer and/or attempted murderer, you don't mind him being let out into society again -- a risk to you and yours -- just because his victims' family and/or would-be victim FORGIVES him?

That's not what I said.

Go back and read it again. You can do better than this.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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That might have something to do with the pardon he received....

Okay, this is the part that I focused on. I leapt to react to this, because it goes some way toward saying, "Oh well, when a victim forgives his attacker, he can go free."

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[SkyDekker 1,405]

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So you're acknowledging that he tried to kill the Pope, and he was a murderer ALREADY...

Here's a guy who really should be let out of prison.

What the FUCK, people?!

Yes he is and he has served his sentences for both. If you don't like it, write to your local turkish representative to change the laws in that country.

And he is not simply being set free, but transfered to a military base to start mandatory military service for an indefinite time...

Do you sometimes think before you type?

[artistcalledian 0]

i forgive you for your PA's towards me, off you go now

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[gmanpilot 0]

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If you can attempt to murder a head of state and still be allowed to leave prison before your corpse stiffens,...

Pardons are a fact of life, and no matter how much we object to it, there's not much we can do about it. What I find interesting is what could be an implied distinction regarding head of state above. I think an increased penalty for assasinating a head of state as opposed to a convenience store clerk to be objectionable.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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And he is not simply being set free, but transfered to a military base to start mandatory military service for an indefinite time...

Yeah, that's right, give the FUCKING [I]MURDERER[/I] MILITARY WEAPONS!

He's a murderer; he should have been executed.
And if they didn't want to do it the first time he murdered, they damn well should have done it after he tried to then kill the pope!

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Do you sometimes think before you type?

A better question is why your personal attacks on me keep being overlooked.

That's exactly the kind of comment that used to get me banned.


-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[pirana 0]

I think the problem is that we have a sinificant number of our population that have become career criminals. It's tough to dispense the appropriate sentence with current guidelines and expectations.

You've got the person with no record, a high likelihood of remorse, and very little chance of repeating. They got caught up in the passion or anger of the moment and acted outside of character. Then you have the career criminal for who jail is just a bit of downtime and who has every intention of repeating their crime.

We need to get very serious about repeat offenders. Not just something like they get 3 years instead of 1. Especially for repeaters of violent crimes, or any crime directly threatening people (as opposed to property). I do not think current sentencing practices is a deterrent for career criminals. (Well, I guess that is a given or they would not repeat).

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Andy9o8 2]

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If you can attempt to murder a head of state and still be allowed to leave prison before your corpse stiffens,...

Pardons are a fact of life, and no matter how much we object to it, there's not much we can do about it. What I find interesting is what could be an implied distinction regarding head of state above. I think an increased penalty for assasinating a head of state as opposed to a convenience store clerk to be objectionable.

I suppose the justification for sentence enhancement is not that the head of state is a more worthwhile life than the store clerk, or that the clerk's murder is any less of an offense to society. It's more that attacking a head of state is tanatamount to an act of war upon an entire nation; and for that, sentencing enhancement is reasonable and does not disrespect the victims of other murders.

And Jeffrey, let's have some perspective here, too. 25 years before parole is a staggeringly long sentence for anyone in any country to serve for a non-capital crime. You may think a mere 25 years is not long enough for their crimes, but it hardly equates to being "friggin' soft" on crime.

Speaking of perspective, Jeffrey, you also said:

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It's not unlike allowing John Hinckley Jr. out of prison to visit his folks, after his conviction for attempting to assassinate Ronald Reagan.

He was not convicted. He was found not guilty by reason of insanity. And, to be technical, he wasn't in prison, he was in a mental hospital. The decision to grant him less custodial supervision was predominantly a medical one. His legal and moral entitlement to eventual release, if his medical condition warranted it, was settled by a jury, pursuant to due process of law, 25 years ago.

[SkyDekker 1,405]

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Yeah, that's right, give the FUCKING MURDERER MILITARY WEAPONS!

You mean every position in the military has access to weapons? Are you sure, or are you going on again before pausing for a second?

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He's a murderer; he should have been executed.
And if they didn't want to do it the first time he murdered, they damn well should have done it after he tried to then kill the pope!

Most if not all western nations do not agree that there should be a death penalty.

Further, now you want the death penalty for attempted murder as well?

[dropoutdave 0]

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Yeah, that's right, give the FUCKING MURDERER MILITARY WEAPONS!

Hang on, I think you might be onto something here, I mean, they do say you should encourage people to do what they are good at.

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May Contain Nut traces......

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Yeah, that's right, give the FUCKING MURDERER MILITARY WEAPONS!

You mean every position in the military has access to weapons? Are you sure, or are you going on again before pausing for a second?

I am under the impression that even people who are destined to be desk jockeys in the military still go through basic training and yeah, learn how to use weapons, and occasionally do live-fire training.

Am I wrong? I have not been through military training, so I don't know for certain.

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Most if not all western nations do not agree that there should be a death penalty.

Further, now you want the death penalty for attempted murder as well?

I'm crazy? I'm ill-informed?

Why not read the articles. He DID already actually murder someone -- a Turkish journalist in 1979. (He got a mere 10 years for that.)

So yeah, the shitbag should've already been dead when he made his attempt on the pope.

And more on your question: YEAH, I fuckin' want those who ATTEMPT murder out of society, too, and execution is a good way to do it. I heard a comedian make fun of this situation once (don't remember who it was); he questioned going easier on a would-be murderer just because he missed.


Anything else?


-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[SkyDekker 1,405]

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I'm crazy?

yes

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Why not read the articles. He DID already actually murder someone -- a Turkish journalist in 1979. (He got a mere 10 years for that.)

So yeah, the shitbag should've already been dead when he made his attempt on the pope.

Murder doesn't carry the death penalty in most Western Nations. Some call it evolving.

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And more on your question: YEAH, I fuckin' want those who ATTEMPT murder out of society, too, and execution is a good way to do it.

I think you should take that job on yourself. You have guns right? If you feel so strong about it. When someone gets released from prison after serving time for attemtped murder. You should go and shoot them.

And don't restrict yourself to just the US....you have problems with sentencing from Italy to Turkey, so maybe you should go do the same over there....

[Newbie 0]

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Yeah, that's right, give the FUCKING MURDERER MILITARY WEAPONS!

You mean every position in the military has access to weapons? Are you sure, or are you going on again before pausing for a second?

I am under the impression that even people who are destined to be desk jockeys in the military still go through basic training and yeah, learn how to use weapons, and occasionally do live-fire training.

Am I wrong? I have not been through military training, so I don't know for certain.

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Most if not all western nations do not agree that there should be a death penalty.

Further, now you want the death penalty for attempted murder as well?

I'm crazy? I'm ill-informed?

Why not read the articles. He DID already actually murder someone -- a Turkish journalist in 1979. (He got a mere 10 years for that.)

So yeah, the shitbag should've already been dead when he made his attempt on the pope.

And more on your question: YEAH, I fuckin' want those who ATTEMPT murder out of society, too, and execution is a good way to do it. I heard a comedian make fun of this situation once (don't remember who it was); he questioned going easier on a would-be murderer just because he missed.


Anything else?


-Jeffrey

I think what many feel is that the old saying "Two wrongs don't make a right" apply here. You can argue until you are blue in the face that it is not wrong to kill someone who has killed someone else - but as peaceful, tolerant and a kind species (in an ideal world) us humans should not resort to taking a life because some sociopath decides to do the same. Progression is not about bringing yourself down to the level of which another operates, and some feel capital punishment does that, and doesn't deter murderers anyway (another arguement people will quote).

Personally i think an often quick and painless death (or less painful than the death they might have inflicted) is an easy way out anyway. Life without parole will give them the rest of their days to face the reality of what they did.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

I don't feel it comes down to a "two wrongs don't make a right" situation -- because it's inappropriate to label an act of society protecting itself against madmen and psychopaths by executing them as a "wrong." It's not criminal, and it's not immoral, and it's not unprovoked.


Skydekker wants to just take anything I say and twist it to make fun of it, even when he distorts the original meaning to the point of absurdity.

Nothing in the law allows for me to just go about doing freelance executions of people who were not (too bad) sentenced to be executed. Duh. Instead, he just wants to say that I'm "crazy".

He doesn't even care about getting any facts right. First he accused me of wanting a guy executed for attempted murder (which doesn't sound so bad to me: see my other post on the subject) because HE did not know that the guy I was talking about was already a convicted murderer; then he ignores when I pointed that out to him and parrots his, "there's no death penalty in most western countries" crap.

I just don't feel there's gonna be any reaching him -- he's willfully not understanding.


-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Once again, someone introduces the notion that capital punishment is worthless if it's not a deterrent.

Specious argument.


We have no shortage of murderers in jail for sentences other than execution. Apparently, 25-years-to-life is also no deterrent to murderers. I guess we should just let them go free, since the threat of prison also won't stop them.

Why is it that no one who cites the failure of execution to be a deterrent ever addresses this point?

I'll answer my own question: It's because they have no valid rebuttal to it.

The criminal justice system has no formula for deterring criminals, and certainly no formula for rehabilitating them. But looking back over history, it's only kinda recently that we decided that the purpose of incarcerating criminals should be to "make them productive members of society" rather than its historical, traditional purpose, which has always been to show that there is a PUNISHMENT for breaking society's laws.

And dead murderers never kill again.
Released murderers do so a lot.


-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[SkyDekker 1,405]

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First he accused me of wanting a guy executed for attempted murder

you said that he should have been executed after he murdered somebody. Failing that he should have been executed for attemtping to murder somebody....your words, no accusation needed from my part.

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because HE did not know that the guy I was talking about was already a convicted murderer; then he ignores when I pointed that out to him and parrots his, "there's no death penalty in most western countries" crap.

Uhmm I did know. He should not have been executed cause the countries he committed his crime in do not have a death penalty. Like I said, write to your nearest turkish or italian representative to get that changed.

To go back to your original post, in which you only mention the attempted murder. If two heads of state pardon him, including the one he attempted to murder, then what is it to you if they let him go or not? Do you think Turkey should keep him in jail for an act he has already served his sentence for?

[SkyDekker 1,405]

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The criminal justice system has no formula for deterring criminals, and certainly no formula for rehabilitating them. But looking back over history, it's only kinda recently that we decided that the purpose of incarcerating criminals should be to "make them productive members of society" rather than its historical, traditional purpose, which has always been to show that there is a PUNISHMENT for breaking society's laws.

And with that Americans still kill eachother more frequently then in most if not all western countries who don't have a death penalty and shorter sentences for murder.....It would seem americans just like to kill eachother no matter what.