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billvon

While we're on the death penalty

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>PROVIDED that the justice system comes to the right decisions 99.9% of the time when it comes to capital cases.



so your total alpha (killing an innocent) and beta (letting a guilty one live) error is 0.1% or 1 in a thousand incorrect decisions. Are they equally weighted, or would you bias your split one way or the other?

at least one person has the guts to quantify it.

As far as the fake post about personal satisfaction above, it's not about retribution or revenge, it's, as BV noted, it's about removing the threat.

As far as it costing so much because of the appeals process, that's a result of terrible inefficiencies and poor application of punishment. I'd also like to fix that first.



Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other nations with similar culture to US do not seem to have suffered any from abolishing the death penalty.

I'm 100% against it.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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...but if one innocent man dies/spends his life in jail so 1000 guilty men don't get set free? Maybe that's 'good enough.'



I dunno.

I guess it's good enough if you're not that innocent man.

I don't have an issue with the death penalty. I have an ISSUE with locking up/killing innocent people.



Yeah, there was a recent thread (the rape thread, I believe) where someone said that they would rather be wrongly accused of something than be raped... And I was thinking I don't know about that... Depending on the extent to which the "being wrongly accused" affected my life (such as ending up in prison for many years), I'm not so sure it would be a less unpleasant experience than rape. Prison sounds pretty horrible to me; I can't even imagine how horrible it would be to go to prison for something that you didn't do.

But I also realize that asking for perfection from humans is pretty much impossible... Though 1 in 1,000 doesn't sound like "good enough" to me; I think we could do better than that.

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Yeah, there was a recent thread (the rape thread, I believe) where someone said that they would rather be wrongly accused of something than be raped...



I don't have an issue with your post. Not at all.

I just want to say that rape can be a life sentence too.

You can get out of jail. You can't get out of your own head.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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I just want to say that rape can be a life sentence too.

You can get out of jail. You can't get out of your own head.



And I agree with that (for the most part - though I do believe that some people have the ability to get out of their own head, or at least to get _things_ out of their head)... but spending 20 years in prison for something that you didn't do would leave quite a lot of painful memories in your head too (well, it would for me anyway). I am in no way trying to downplay the horror of rape, just saying that to me a life of wrongful imprisonment sounds like it could be equally horrific... though it's pretty much impossible to compare the two.

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>Nope, not good enough.

So what's good enough? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000? If we execute (or jail forever) an innocent man once every 500 years, is that good enough? Once in 1000?

>Can you?

Nope. But a failure of my imagination is insufficient cause to avoid considering it.

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I'm only 29 so maybe I will live to see when the last of the western civilizations finally and permanently abolishes the death penalty. It's about time.



Some aren't doing it for altruistic reasons.
Some countries just realized that it costs $2million to endure all the legal gymnastics while it only costs $500K to warehouse them. Some countries just did it to save money.

The only real problem is terrorists. If you put one in prison, then their buddies take hostages to free them, so you just compound the problem.

Italy practiced an avoidance philosophy with the Achille Lauro hijackers. They just released them. Like it was ok if they just left the country and killed people elsewhere.

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this is one of those issues that i'm on the fence about. i'm pro death penalty. i get some sick sense of satifaction when people like tookie williams or ted bundy get put to death. there are several problems though. it is more expensive to put someone through appeals than to just let them sit the rest of their life. sometimes innocent people get put to death. this reason alone would make me support getting rid of it. it isn't a deterent. it does nothing to make our society better. it only satifies the bloodlust and desire for revenge of people like myself.



The fact that the death penalty is not a deterrent to murder is not a valid reason to oppose it, given the fact that life in prison also fails to be a deterrent to murder.

I strongly feel that the act of murder causes one to forfeit his life -- which should then be taken from him by society as soon as practical, after, of course, a fair trial.

Part of what is broken -- as it was previously stated the system is broken -- is the length of time a convicted murderer gets to appeal his sentence. 20 years, 25 years, even TWO years is far too long.

If we fixed that, then the financial cost of supporting a convicted murderer on death row and through numerous appeals would be a nonissue.

-Jeffrey
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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>Nope, not good enough.

So what's good enough? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000?



I can't name a number for what's good enough. But until our system can achieve 100%, I say we set aside the DP.



Oh, puhlease. And you'll say that's reasonable? 100% success rate is all you'll accept?

(And who are you kidding about not having a number that's good enough? You have a number that would be good enough for you, and you stated it.)


You ought to quit skydiving. And we ought never send another ship across the ocean, or rocket into space. We also ought to never do another cardiac bypass surgery... :S


-Jeffrey
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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Oh, puhlease. And you'll say that's reasonable? 100% success rate is all you'll accept?



I've been a fence sitter on the DP for a long time, but recent questions about killing innocents have helped sway me towards getting rid of the system entirely.

In life, I've been 1 in 1,000 when I won a raffle years ago. I've also been 1 in 10,000 and even 1 in 250,000 within other statistically measurable phenomena. I'd hate to be that unlucky innocent dude on death row.


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(And who are you kidding about not having a number that's good enough? You have a number that would be good enough for you, and you stated it.)



I did? What is the number I stated?


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You ought to quit skydiving. And we ought never send another ship across the ocean, or rocket into space. We also ought to never do another cardiac bypass surgery... :S



All of those are assumed risk. The only sure way to avoid a false sentence (and a lot of other stuff) is to stop existing.


. . =(_8^(1)

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I don't think it's nearly as difficult to avoid being suspected of murder than you are making it seem.

I don't think that random, everyday people who are living within the law and normal society just get scooped up off the street and put on trial for murder.


And the "number" you suggested was "all." All of them. You want every single death penalty case to be 100% correct and accurate in its verdict. That doesn't happen in ANY category of criminal case. You are holding a man-made system to an impossible standard (perfection).

The only perfectly true thing about judicial findings is that they will never be 100% faultless.


-Jeffrey
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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I don't think it's nearly as difficult to avoid being suspected of murder than you are making it seem.



It is whatever it is. I'm not trying to make it seem like anything.


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The only perfectly true thing about judicial findings is that they will never be 100% faultless.



Sadly, that's correct, and just one of several compelling reasons to ditch the death peanlty.


. . =(_8^(1)

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Of course, it's not a common phenomenon. It's simply a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Suppose, theoretically, one day you're drunk and you do the smart thing and decide to walk home.

Somewhere in the vicinity a 7-11 got held up and the worker was shot. They pick you up.

You were wasted and barely remember anything.

The prosecutor turns out to be very aggresive and just wants another conviction on his record.

You're fucked.

No, it doesn't happen normally.

But it has happened.

And once is too many.
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I don't think it's nearly as difficult to avoid being suspected of murder than you are making it seem.



It is whatever it is. I'm not trying to make it seem like anything.



Bullshit! You clearly were trying to make it seem like you stand to just as easily be suspected, charged, and wrongly convicted and executed for murder as you managed to win the raffle. Why back away from your thesis now?

The fact remains, you aren't nearly as at risk to come under a false murder conviction as you tried to make it seem.

And if you're saying now that you weren't trying to make it seem that way, I call "bullshit."


-Jeffrey
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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Bullshit! You clearly were trying to make it seem like you stand to just as easily be suspected, charged, and wrongly convicted and executed for murder as you managed to win the raffle. Why back away from your thesis now?



I've bolded part of my paragraph below, the part you must've MISSED last time you read it:

"In life, I've been 1 in 1,000 when I won a raffle years ago. I've also been 1 in 10,000 and even 1 in 250,000 within other statistically measurable phenomena. I'd hate to be that unlucky innocent dude on death row."

Part of the subliminal point in that VERY paragraph was that I don't KNOW what the numbers are, and maybe that I really don't care. I certainly don't want them to "seem" like anything.


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And if you're saying now that you weren't trying to make it seem that way, I call "bullshit."



I call bullshit too -- go rinse off your shoes.


. . =(_8^(1)

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I call bullshit too -- go rinse off your shoes.



I'm only steppin' in the pile you left. You should have to buy me new shoes.


Make it flip-flops; you can get away on the cheap, since I rarely wear "real" shoes.

And I skydive barefoot.


-Jeffrey
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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It really annoys me when techies get on the stand and say that DNA evdence means that the chances of it being someone else is more than 1 in a billion.

This is complete and utter bullshit- not because DNA is unique for all barring identical twins, but because the tests themselves are subject to the same errors as any other lab based test ie inherent error and possiblity for contamination.

There was a horrific example here, of a DNA sample from a rape case being contaminated at the lab with a sample from a murder case....1 in a billion? I don't think so.
xj

"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."

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I live in Houston, Texas. Our police DNA lab has been closed, it was so bad. Right now the state is going through all cases prosecuted with its evidence to look for people who were wrongly convicted. At least one person has been set free after 17 years in prison. He was guilty of nothing.

Eyewitness testimony is extremely unreliable; DNA labs are neither perfect nor incorruptible.

Being in the wrong place at the wrong time is very expensive if you're the one in that wrong place at the wrong time.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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statistics can prove the pope is a gay black man, if you're so determinded

if you say that through DNA testing, the chance of a somebody not committing that crime is 1 in a billion..... you'd think its pretty certain they did it yeah?

but there's 6 billion people on this planet, so its actually only a 1 in 6 chance it WAS them... not so certain now is it !
________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

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Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other nations with similar culture to US do not seem to have suffered any from abolishing the death penalty.

I'm 100% against it.



Other countries being (either better or worse) is not an argument (your words, frequently).

But you being against it is a good stand. And it doesn't matter if this guy is innocent or guilty, your position is based on your code.

As for the 100%ers out there - :S

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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I live in Houston, Texas. Our police DNA lab has been closed, it was so bad. Right now the state is going through all cases prosecuted with its evidence to look for people who were wrongly convicted. At least one person has been set free after 17 years in prison. He was guilty of nothing.

Eyewitness testimony is extremely unreliable; DNA labs are neither perfect nor incorruptible.

Being in the wrong place at the wrong time is very expensive if you're the one in that wrong place at the wrong time.

Wendy W.



I actually took a class in college about eye witness testemony and the statistics show that almost 50% of the time, eye witness testimony is wrong! We even tested ourselves and it was very sad....none of us got it right! DNA is the best way so far.
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I love and Miss you so much Honey!
Orfun #3 ~ Darla

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