artistcalledian 0 #76 January 9, 2006 läßt die Nacht zusammen verbringen ________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #77 January 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteRemember, we're not talking about me volunteering to kill the man on the street phew, i'm safe then Where did you get this from? It wasn't me. sorry, wrong person ________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sen.Blutarsky 0 #78 January 10, 2006 QuoteDo you plan to invite me, or am I to miss out on all the fun? Why who did you think I was going to fold into my torte Clarise? A torte leavened with alu … er … a special flour. Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #79 January 10, 2006 QuoteQuoteDo you plan to invite me, or am I to miss out on all the fun? Why who did you think I was going to fold into my torte Clarise? A torte leavened with alu … er … a special flour. Ah! I've been made the butt of the joke! You're a real pain in the ass sometimes, but you redeem it all by being funny as hell. Well done, Senator. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Falko 0 #80 January 10, 2006 QuoteSorry. We've done this once; and I refuse to do it again. You still dodge answering a simple question, because it exposes the heart of the matter. I ask it again: Are people that are born with a mental illness or disability (or defect for that matter) any less human than you or I? Yes or no? QuoteBy definition, psychopathy is not mental illness. It is an inborn defect that features a complete lack of empathy for all living creatures. And all a psychopath ever does is inflict pain and suffering on those around them. In my book it's a mental illness caused by physical defects and/or other reasons still under research. The exact definition is not important to me, I'll let the scientists sort that out. Illness or defect or disability or clinical state or whatever it is, it doesn't change anything from the fact that we're talking about humans. But I'll rest my case, I know I can't convince you anyway. You obviously have an issue with "psychopaths". Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #81 January 10, 2006 QuoteQuoteSorry. We've done this once; and I refuse to do it again. You still dodge answering a simple question, because it exposes the heart of the matter. I ask it again: Are people that are born with a mental illness or disability (or defect for that matter) any less human than you or I? Yes or no? No. But psychopathy is neither a mental illness nor a disability. It is "other." You keep trying to nudge me onto the slippery slope, Falko, and I'm not going. But if you want something I will compare it to, try anencephaly. An anencephalic birth is not human. It could have been human, but a necessary component for humanity is missing--a human brain. And just so is a psychopath missing a necessary component for humanity--the capacity for empathy. Please do not try this again. I don't agree with your definitions so we have no starting place for discussion. We have rupture. QuoteYou obviously have an issue with "psychopaths". Whether or not I have an issue with psychopaths is not the issue. Don't try making it about me. The argument is still the argument, regardless of my personal feelings. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #82 January 10, 2006 We are protesting. There are many planned protests over the next week in California. I can get you a list of some if you like. There are two in my area that I am planning on attending. I think it hasn't shown up on dz.com because we just had the argument over Tookie Williams, and there's not much use in saying the same thing twice in such a short time period. I think that's why it's not on the news as much as Tookie either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #83 January 10, 2006 Are you one of those people who argues that anyone who would murder HAS to be mentally ill, and therefore not responsible for having murdered? I think that is the biggest line of bullshit ever attempted. Seen it over and over: always makes me sick. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Falko 0 #84 January 10, 2006 QuoteAre you one of those people who argues that anyone who would murder HAS to be mentally ill, and therefore not responsible for having murdered? No. Anyone != psychopath. Also, the issue is not "responsibility" but "humanity". Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Falko 0 #85 January 10, 2006 QuoteQuoteAre people that are born with a mental illness or disability (or defect for that matter) any less human than you or I? Yes or no? No. But psychopathy is neither a mental illness nor a disability. It is "other." You said it's an inborn defect. Now it's "other"? You're just dodging the conclusion of your own principle. How about this: For clarification you could make a list with different birth defects which make the newborn less than human. With the advancements in genetics we might be able to sort them out in the first weeks of pregnancy, that would also be cheaper than killing them AFTER they've done harm as an adult. QuoteYou keep trying to nudge me onto the slippery slope, Falko, and I'm not going. I'm drawing conclusions from your principle. No slippery slope here, just applying YOUR logic. edit4typo Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #86 January 10, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteAre people that are born with a mental illness or disability (or defect for that matter) any less human than you or I? Yes or no? No. But psychopathy is neither a mental illness nor a disability. It is "other." You said it's an inborn defect. Now it's "other"? You're just dodging the conclusion of your own principle. No. I'm not dodging the conclusion of my own principle. I'm refusing to get locked into the two choices you've given me, neither of which I accept. I don't agree that it's a mental illness or a disability. It fits into neither definition, the same way that anencephaly fits into neither definition. QuoteHow about this: For clarification you could make a list with different birth defects which make the newborn less than human. With the advancements in genetics we might be able to sort them out in the first weeks of pregnancy, that would also be cheaper than killing them AFTER they've done harm as an adult. So now we have "mental illness," "disability," and "birth defect." Another whole category with which to work. There are a lot of currently known birth defects for which people obtain abortions, Falko, so as our ability to test for those defects grows, there will be women who abort damaged human fetuses. But even now there are those who reject abortion for known anencephalic births. I googled it and was appalled. But other than anencephaly, I know of no physical defect that qualifies for what you're trying to get at. I do suspect that, however, that if we learn to test for psychopathy before birth, there are quite a few women who will choose to abort if the consequences of such a birth are made known to them. QuoteQuoteYou keep trying to nudge me onto the slippery slope, Falko, and I'm not going. I'm drawing conclusions from your principle. No slippery slope here, just applying YOUR logic. But you keep trying to use definitions that I reject by which to do it. I'm not going to accept your definitions or the choices that you offer me. I'm saying that psychopathy is another category altogether. You think I'm wrong, you think I'm pitiful, and that's your right, but trying to lock me in again and again to your definitions is not going to work. I've already rejected them so I'm not going to pick them up again at a later date. This is a boring discussion because it just goes round and round. Can we stop now? One more thing: what about the topic of the thread? Should the sick old man be killed? rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #87 January 10, 2006 QuoteShould the sick old man be killed? yeah ________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #88 January 10, 2006 QuoteI think it hasn't shown up on dz.com because we just had the argument over Tookie Williams, and there's not much use in saying the same thing twice in such a short time period. I think that's why it's not on the news as much as Tookie either. I disagree with this wholeheartedly. THis is NOT the same argument as with Tookie. While I've painted it that way, there is an entirely different thing going on here. The more depressing it gets to me, too. It's very simple to me - there is very little politically to be gained by protesting Allen's execution. Allen has several things going against him with this - he's the wrong age, the wrong color, and his crimes were too awful. It's hard to say, "The death penalty is racist" against Allen. It's hard to say, "He can still do some good things." It's hard to say, "Only the poor get the death penalty" against Allen. It's hard to say, "There is credible evidence that he didn't do it." It's even hard to say, "This man doesn't deserve the death penalty." And I would lay some pretty good odds that we don't see Jesse Jackson come anywhere NEAR Allen. As I wrote before, Clarence Allen is my worst nightmare as someone who wants a moratorium on the death penalty. I also truly believe that Tookie did are responsible for far more death, destruction and human misery than Clarence Allen was, though they were directly responsible for the same number of deaths. Clarence Allen is(was) white, smart, a natural leader personality, a businessman, and a sociopath, who did no good for anybody once he was in prison. Tookie was black, smart, a natural leader personality, a businessman, and a sociopath, who did some good once he was imprisoned. Kris - do you think race has anything whatsoever to do with the different treatment? If not, you are kidding yourself. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #89 January 10, 2006 Sure, race probably has something to do with it. In trying to argue against the death penalty for this person in particular, Allen's case is not easy. However, in the Tookie thread, we also went over the general reasons people object to the death penalty, all of which can be applied in Allen's case as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #90 January 10, 2006 I agree. And unfortunately there are very few people out there who object to the death penalty on a philosphical basis. People will object to the execution of black men, of white women, of the sick, the infirm, the mentally ill. It's the sad thing abotu politics. YOu need something to rally around. No use wasting energy protesting the death penalty on a worthless guy like Allen, unless you are really devoted. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #91 January 10, 2006 QuoteI agree. And unfortunately there are very few people out there who object to the death penalty on a philosphical basis. People will object to the execution of black men, of white women, of the sick, the infirm, the mentally ill. I think we see quite a few people here that really do object on a generalize basis and not just on a case basis. They have the best arguments. And those seem to be stronger than the pro arguments of the same basis. Too bad both sides get cluttered up by the flavor of the day arguments. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
