Why I love my concealed carry permit

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

I took her post to make clear that these guys were advancing on her with nefarious intent, and were veiling their true meaning behind "benign" words that make it sound, on paper, like they just wanted to hang out or something. I'll bet it was pretty clear to her at the time that they intended her harm, or at least to force her to do things that were against her will.

Explain to us how drawing and being ready to fire her gun put her more at risk than she was already, if she hadn't had the means of fending these animals off.

Sometimes you can't help ending up in a place that is kind of seedy. Yeah, going to a bar for directions might not be the best idea, but is it better to wander aimlessly in an unfamiliar part of town, possibly to end up in a worse area? Maybe the "bar" she referred to was more like a TGIFriday's or something less down-n-gritty than you're thinking, anyway.

-Jeffrey
-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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and "Mushy" hug?! How do you make a hug "mushy"?

Come by and bring either a gallon of pudding or a couple buckets of mashed potatoes. It's hard to describe, but pretty obvious when demonstrated.

Oh, and a towel.

Better make it a beach towel.

thanks for giving her a little explainin... i was puttin together a nice PowerPointPresentation, but you said it so succinctly.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

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You put yourself in a very risky situation and I hope you learned your lesson.

She certainly did NOT learn any lesson she did NOT ALREADY know... her Glock helped save her. While she readily admits that the bad side of town stuff wasn't the brightest, you know, sometimes those things CAN'T be helped. In this case it probably could have, but who the hell do you think you are to arm-chair quarterback Kara? While pulling a gun on someone MAY SOMETIMES get someone hurt or killed, that is HIGHLY unlikely to happen if the gun-puller is a competently trained person, which Kara is. In this case, it DIDN'T get her killed, it saved her ass.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[UntamedDOG 0]

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Explain to us how drawing and being ready to fire her gun put her more at risk than she was already, if she hadn't had the means of fending these animals off.

There were several bad decisions made that could have been avoided. If you are going someplace unfamiliar, use mapquest.com and print out directions. Use your cell phone if you get lost. An even better idea would be to meet your friends at a familiar location and follow them in your car.

Don’t ask for directions at a place where people are drinking and getting drunk.

Don’t walk back to your car alone. Ask a bouncer to escort you. I’m sure they wouldn’t have a problem with this.

If you draw a gun, 5 guys can draw on you, then you are outnumbered and trapped. Then what do you do? This is how people get killed and it happens all the time.

Maybe she had no choice, I wasn’t there so I can’t say what she did was wrong, I’m only suggesting alternatives that would have avoided the whole situation to begin with.

UntamedDOG

[Flygurl 0]

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If you were a guy, I would never hang out with you. Drawing a gun on someone can get you killed. You are very lucky that it worked out to your benefit. I have witnessed a person get killed doing exactly what you did outside of a bar in L.A.

I don't believe I was lucky. I believe that if I hadn't had the ability to defend myself I would have been attacked at the very least. I evaluated the situation and handled it exactly the way I've been trained to.

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Drawing a gun is something you do as a last resort, not because someone sexually harasses you in a crowded parking lot.

Since you were not there and didn't witness the situation, I don't think it's fair for you to assume that it was simply sexual harassment. I know the difference between guys having a good time and guys that are threatening me.

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You put yourself in a very risky situation and I hope you learned your lesson.

I find your view interesting. Since I feel as though you are attacking my personal decision making process, let me expand on them so that you have the opportunity to see my side more accurately:

I assume a lot of risks by my nature. I am actively involved in Canine Search and Rescue and spent time at the World Trade Center, Katina, and many other disasters. These are high risk situations that I have sought training to deal with. I have done so successfully for 11 years. I feel the good that comes from taking high risks whether that is rescue, skydiving, or whatever is well worth it.

I do charity work regularly. As it did on this occasion, it sometimes places me in less than upscale neighborhoods. I stopped in a public place to ask for directions. There was little other choice in the area and it looked like the safest place to stop.

I will continue to pursue the activities that I feel are valuable regardless of the risk.

I strongly feel that I handled this situation exactly right and would do it over again if necessary. I will not stay at home on my sofa because you think it's stupid for me to be in the "wrong" neighborhood irregardless of reason and I won't roll over with my legs in the air when some thug threatens me.

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I strongly feel that I handled this situation exactly right and would do it over again if necessary. I will not stay at home on my sofa because you think it's stupid for me to be in the "wrong" neighborhood irregardless of reason and I won't roll over with my legs in the air when some thug threatens me.

You are my hero. Seriously.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[UntamedDOG 0]

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I will continue to pursue the activities that I feel are valuable regardless of the risk.

Yet another cavalier statement. Do you claim that charity work exempts you from danger in a bad neighborhood. Do you think these hoods cared about your good willed intentions? You could have avoided this situation and still been able to do your charity work. Use your fucking head next time.

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Use your fucking head next time

She DID. Now use yours and STFU.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[UntamedDOG 0]

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She DID. Now use yours and STFU.

Wow, how many IQ points did it take for you to poetize such a bon mot retort?

[Flygurl 0]

No, I don't think I'm exempt from danger in a bad neighborhood. That's why I was carrying at the time.

If I hadn't used my head, I may not have lived to share the story.

Next time I'll call you for directions instead of stopping in a public place. That way you can save me from myself.

________________________________________

"One out of every four American's are suffering from some form of mental illness. Think of your three best friends. If they're okay, then it's you."

[UntamedDOG 0]

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Next time I'll call you for directions instead of stopping in a public place. That way you can save me from myself.

What bothered me about your original post was that you seem very proud that you have a concealed weapons permit. If you had your gun exposed in a visible holster, those guys would have seen it. This alone is a deterrent to harassment. The point that you and many of your supporters are missing is that I mentioned about 5 different ways that you could have avoided this situation and still been able to go about your business in that neighborhood.

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Next time I'll call you for directions instead of stopping in a public place. That way you can save me from myself.

What bothered me about your original post was that you seem very proud that you have a concealed weapons permit. If you had your gun exposed in a visible holster, those guys would have seen it. This alone is a deterrent to harassment. The point that you and many of your supporters are missing is that I mentioned about 5 different ways that you could have avoided this situation and still been able to go about your business in that neighborhood.

While I'll grant you ONE THING, that some of your suggestions have some merit, your general tone was condescending and I'm not at all surprised she was offended by it. Hell, I WAS offended by it by PROXY!

There are pros and cons to both open carry AND concealed carry. As for open carry, if the perps SAW she had a gun, perhaps they would have schemed a different plan which could have seperated her from her weapon. The element of surprise is important.
There's much more to this, but I don't have the energy to argue w/ you on this... Kara can obviously handle herself on the street AND in here... I'll let her shoot you to pieces.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

And then you descended into personal attacks because we presumed to question your critique of her actions. And you lost me as an audience. I was going to get into a discussion with you about it, too...

I don't think I want to discuss anything with someone who gets as nasty as quickly as I just witnessed you doing.


-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Flygurl 0]

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What bothered me about your original post was that you seem very proud that you have a concealed weapons permit.

I don't know why that would bother you, but I wouldn't say that I'm proud of the permit. I worked hard for it and keep current on my training. It would be accurate to say that I'm proud that I successfully defended myself.

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If you had your gun exposed in a visible holster, those guys would have seen it. This alone is a deterrent to harassment.

I disagree completely. The element of surprise is one of the most valuable components of self defense. I conceal to prevent a would be thug from disarming me when I'm not paying attention.

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The point that you and many of your supporters are missing is that I mentioned about 5 different ways that you could have avoided this situation and still been able to go about your business in that neighborhood.

Just because I didn't do things the same way you would have done them doesn't make me wrong and it doesn't make me stupid.

Hindsight is twenty twenty and the arm chair quarterback always has the best view.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Nope, the armchair skybox ticketholder has the best view.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[juanesky 0]

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She DID. Now use yours and STFU.

Wow, how many IQ points did it take for you to poetize such a bon mot retort?

Way less than the following:

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I was in a shady part of town

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Real smart.

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this evening and got a little bit lost looking for an address

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Even smarter. A shitty hood at night.

Could you at least try to find a good argument, instead of calling her stupid? Is it her fault that she does a volunteer's job, and gets lost, or should the fault of criminal behaviour be placed on the criminals themselves? How do you like this novell approach?

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[JohnRich 4]

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...you seem very proud that you have a concealed weapons permit. If you had your gun exposed in a visible holster, those guys would have seen it. This alone is a deterrent to harassment.

A concealed carry permit only allows a person to carry a gun concealed. To carry it in plain view would be illegal, and would subject her to arrest. She was following the law.

And the reason for that requirement, is that when the good guy's guns are concealed, the thugs tend to avoid attacking people as much as they used to, because they just don't know who might fight back with deadly force. So when FlyGurl carries that concealed handgun, she doesn't just make herself safe, she's also making other people safe too, by putting doubt into the heads of the thugs.

You can bet your ass that those punks will think twice about harassing some lady again, after what FlyGurl showed them. And that's exactly how this law is intended to work. The criminals should be the ones living in fear, not the good guys.

[Richards 0]

Hi UntamedDOG

Regarding your comment;

"If you had your gun exposed in a visible holster, those guys would have seen it. This alone is a deterrent to harassment".

I am not sure I agree with this observation. Yes in a lot of cases a gun carried openly will deter an attack; however if the assailant is determined to cause harm, seeing her gun would merely allow the attacker to be more prepared and perhaps use a surprise attack rather than the corner and intimidate approach that he used. On that note I have heard some martial artists say that they would not want a potential attacker to be aware of their abilities, as this would merely ensure that he showed up more prepared, perhaps with a weapon or more backup. They would prefer for him to attack unprepared and find their abilities to be an unexpected and unpleasant surprise, thus giving them a better chance of escaping unharmed (If there are any martial artists on this sight could you please confirm/deny this rational as I myself do not practice any martial arts and am only using second hand info). I personally would be afraid that by advertising my ability to defend myself with a gun, while I might deter the less motivated I might also be warning my potential opponent to have a plan to disarm me by surprise. I would be more confident knowing that he is not prepared for the firearm that I would pull, and that I would be more likely to gain the upper hand and escape.

Another benefit of concealed firearms over exposed firearms is the fact that there are positive externalities to concealed firearms. Some studies have shown that states with non-concealed carry laws have not seen the significant drop in crime that states with concealed carry laws have seen. This is likely due to the fact that criminals in states with open carry laws simply chose victims who do not have firearms and ignore the ones who openly bear arms (which does support your argument of deterrence). In states with concealed carry laws the criminals only know that x percent of their potential victims are armed but they don’t know which ones. Therefore criminals realize that every time they approach a potential victim they are running the risk that they will at best face a citizens arrest and at worst death by lead poisoning. This uncertainty encourages more of them to take up less risky forms of crime such as shoplifting, which does not pit them against their fellow human in most cases. As a result even people who do not carry guns benefit from the fact that some people do. I cannot remember the names of the studies, but I believe that at least one or two were conducted by John Lott (Massachusetts Institute of Technology).

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[craddock 0]

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A concealed carry permit only allows a person to carry a gun concealed. To carry it in plain view would be illegal, and would subject her to arrest. She was following the law.

How do you know this? Open carry is quite Legal in Colorodo so it would have to be in violation of local laws. Are you that familiar with the local laws where this took place?

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[craddock 0]

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And the reason for that requirement

??? What do you mean by this? In many states Open Carry is legal. It is Legal in Wisconsin which is one of the four states that does not allow CCW. It may be legal in KS and Nebraska also(non CCW states. Are you implying that a permit holder can not Open Carry in a state that allows it otherwise?

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edited for spelling

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[JohnRich 4]

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And the reason for that requirement

??? What to yoo mean by this? Many states Open Carry is legal. It is Legal in Wisconsin which is one of the four states that does not allow CCW. It may be legal in KS and Nebraska also(non CCW states. Are you implying that a permit holder can not Open Carry in a state that allows it otherwise?

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Pardon me. I didn't realize CO had open carry. I was presuming that it was like most states, which prohibit open carry.

So in the case of CO then, if someone who is carrying openly, conceals his handgun, but doesn't have a concealed handgun permit, then that becomes an illegal act?

This all seems goofy to me. If you trust people to carry openly without a license, they ought to be able to do the same concealed.

[craddock 0]

I agree.

Now just because a state allows Open Carry per its Constitution does not mean you will not get arrested for doing so or that they trust you to do so.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Sneakerz 0]

In Fl (yes I have a conceal permit) and we are allowed to open carry if we are going hunting, fishing, or camping, if we are on our own property, or at our place of bussiness (if you worked in a gun store, pawn shop, etc).

---------------
"Once you find a job that you like, you never have to work another day in your life"

[stoneycase 0]

interesting. very glad you are alive to tell the story. that's the part that counts, you walked away unharmed.

i suppose you could consider me "pro-gun", though my reasons are different than those expressed in this thread. i find myself agreeing with this type of opinion:

The anarcho-capitalist school of libertarianism holds that because compulsory collection of taxes is de facto performed under threat of violence from a State, its subjects have the right to defend themselves from such extortion.

as an aside, not trying to be argumentative: i always thought that the use of lethal force in self defense could only be justified if the threat faced was 'extreme' or 'deadly', basically your lethal force was justified because it was equal to the threat you faced. the force being applied is essentially porportional to the threat being faced.

so it would seem, if you hypothetically shot and killed one man, you would need to prove he was an extreme or deadly threat. that is, the threat he represents is fairly equal to the force of you shooting him. if he isn't carrying or showing a weapon, would this be easy to prove? i think you'd probably need to take into account the fact that there was a group and the other details, but i genuinely wonder whether your situation would meet the required legal standard. you could also take into account whether or not you could "escape safely", but still, without a weapon on him, or the group, i'm curious. and don't forget, if "the man" doesn't charge you, you still have the civil side to beat. the cynic in me would bet $10 that, given the hypothetical, lawyers would be lining up to assist the family of dead man.

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[craddock 0]

Just an FYI for you John. There are many more states that allow open carry than where is is highly restricted or banned. Some states require a license while others don't. There are actually very few that restrict it completely.

The only states to the west of the Mississippi that do not allow open carry are Texes, Oklahoma, and Arkansas. On the other side, with the exception of Illinois, you have to go clear to the East coast. Florida and a handful of states around and including New York ban public Open carry.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.