Why can't I get a job without being insulted?

[Airman1270 0]

This is primarily directed at people who own businesses and claim they can't find good help. I'm looking for work and almost interviewed with a company yesterday.

I was greeted warmly and directed to a table to fill out a lengthy application which asked for far more information than seemed relevant. As I slogged through this mess I noticed that I was required to "answer every question", would be forced to sumbit not only to a pre-employment drug test (which itself is offensive) but random testing during my tenure with the company. In addition, they wanted detailed accounting of the places I had lived, as well as "permission" to do an exhaustive credit check. I can ASSume no permission, no job.

Perhaps I should point out that I wasn't applying for a position at the White House, FBI, Miami Customs, or looking to drive a HAZ MAT truck. This was a local small business with no "public safety" concerns.

In addition, I already have a solid, verifiable employment history, a clean driving record going back nearly 30 years, and a clean criminal background.

While filling out the paperwork several employees were carrying on a conversation peppered with several uses of "fuck" and other blue language. As an adult and a skydiver I am accustomed to hearing and occasionally using such language, but it seems kinda low class to speak this way in the company of guests on whom you might want to make a positive impression.

After filling out the form, I left it on the receptionist's desk and walked out, having concluded I don't want anything to do with these people. Meanwhile, they've been interviewing applicants for at least two weeks and still haven't filled the position. I long ago lost the ability to take seriously the complaints of business owners who claim that they can't find good help when they seem so eager to begin the relationship by treating people like crap.

All I want is a brief meeting with a supervisor to learn what the job is all about and determine if I might be the right man for the position. If so, I can then provide all relevant information. I'm not afraid of a background check. While I'm disgusted by the whole drug testing thing (because it's an insulting procedure that does NOTHING to ensure workplace sobriety) I'll reluctantly go along with it to get the job. But what is the point? Why do you need my credit report (which, by the way, makes me look good)? How does your company suffer if you DON'T treat people this way?

I've done a wide variety of things over the years, including food service, manufacturing, shipping/receiving, electronic assembly, sheet metal work, drilling, and radio, and have done very well at all of these jobs. I have solid references. What more do you need? What are you afraid of?

Cheers,
Jon S.

[rehmwa 2]

Scenario - Interview after the administrivia

Fill out paperwork
Research shows - has issues in his past (drugs, credit issues, doesn't pay rent, makes drugs in the apartment, killed a man just to watch his eyes)
Or even can't hire you because of affirmative action or other subjective and arbitrary legal reasons
no interview (no reason given)
thanks for your interest, buh bye


Scenario - Interview before the administrivia

Informal interview, looks good, we'd like to go ahead process you for the job.
Fills paperwork, pees in cup
Research shows - has issues in his past (drugs, credit issues, doesn't pay rent, makes drugs in the apartment, killed a man just to watch his eyes)
Or even can't hire you because of affirmative action or other subjective and arbitrary legal reasons
No job offer (no reason given)
"But, you said the interview was good and this was just processing" demands a reason
Informally, the reason is given because now the interviewer remembers you and likes you and wants to let you down kindly
Turns out you aren't as nice as the first interview impression implied
Lawsuit
Pain
Close business, 20 people out of work



The business owner's process is precisely because of people taking legal actions and messing around with businesses (small and large). this has made the interview process cumbersome and expensive for hiring companies. They'd much rather do it your way, but enough people have screwed it up so people like you who are really decent - have to get everything pre-set to make the possibility even happen.

Your complaint was that the business owners process was inconvenient to you. Too bad, when you are the boss, you can tailor your process to the stranger walking in off the street looking for work.



And sometimes, there are only a few people who conduct interviews and they'd just as soon not have to talk to everybody without pre-screening because they also have their regular job. Again, they are the ones with the offer, so they can set the rules.

Edit: And considering this an 'insult' is just silly. Taking a business process personal will just get you mad for no reason and with no way to satify it.

Good luck on your search. really. be patient, they'll recognize your worth

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ReBirth 0]

It's not out of desire, it's necessity. Where I work they do a criminal and credit background check. They just started doing it, reluctantly. Why? Because our clients won't do business with us otherwise.

[lawrocket 3]

Okay. I absolutely understand where you are coming from. As a business owner, you've actually given me some ideas about some things to start doing.

First thing's first - why is it "insulting" that they want to do a drug check or a credit check? Drugs cause some serious problems with employees. if I found out that someone was on meth, I would not hire that person. Why? Because meth heads are often in need of money, which means that things can go badly. Also, they have a problem with being somewhat unstable. Third, their judgment is implicated negatively not just by the use of it, but because meth has a tendency to lead to someone psychotic behavior.

Think of the costs associated with doign drug checks, credit checks, and other screening. Do you think employers would front in excess of 100 dollars for every applicant just for shits and giggles? Or, do you think that employers have good business reasons for doing so?

We employers look at these as a type of insurance. It's far easier for us to say, "We checked on this dude and everything checked out. What happened was completedly unexpected. His credit was fine - he didn't appear to be in need of money, so it was a shock that he pilfered all those goods. We cannot be held negligent in this matter."

Because employers are responsible for every fuckup and employee makes. The employee out making a delivery crashes the delivery truck? Employer is liable. Employee submits the wrong form, costing the employer $10k? The employee may be fired, but the employer loses that money.

Local "small businesses" are far less able to eat the costs of hiring a random fuckup. In economies of scale, large corporations can't afford hiring a large number of fuckups. The cost of the random outlier can be eaten by them, but not the small business.

Quote

several employees were carrying on a conversation peppered with several uses of "fuck" and other blue language.

This can indicate one of two things: 1) these hiring policies came into effect after hiring these foul-mouthed employees; or 2) foul-mouthed employees aren't a worry, so long as they do their job responsibly. But, it seems that the employer may want to identify people like that so as to not hire them in the future. Look at the poor impression it made on you. So, for risk management, perhaps they want to avoid people like that who may be scaring away not only potential employees, but also customers.

Quote

Why do you need my credit report (which, by the way, makes me look good)?

I explained that above. Credit reports are useful because of the things they tend to show. You know that they pull credit for a governmental security clearance, right? They'll deny you even a "secret" clearane with poor credit. Someone who apparently is in over his head money-wise may be really needing some cash. That's a red flag.

Also, credit is your reputation for financial responsibility, which can tend to show your responsibility level for other things. Do you manage your responsibiliies and tasks? All of them? I've had problems with my credit, and I'm working at fixing it. But, it can show some problems.

Quote

All I want is a brief meeting with a supervisor to learn what the job is all about and determine if I might be the right man for the position.

Now you see another point. Interviews work both ways. The employer wants to know if you are right for the job. You are also interviewing the employer to determine whether the job is right for you. A qud pro quo arrangement right from the start.

Insulted by the requirements? Don't take the job. It's that simple.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[artistcalledian 0]

Quote

This is primarily directed at people who own businesses and claim they can't find good help. I'm looking for work and almost interviewed with a company yesterday.

I was greeted warmly and directed to a table to fill out a lengthy application which asked for far more information than seemed relevant. As I slogged through this mess I noticed that I was required to "answer every question", would be forced to sumbit not only to a pre-employment drug test (which itself is offensive) but random testing during my tenure with the company. In addition, they wanted detailed accounting of the places I had lived, as well as "permission" to do an exhaustive credit check. I can ASSume no permission, no job.

Perhaps I should point out that I wasn't applying for a position at the White House, FBI, Miami Customs, or looking to drive a HAZ MAT truck. This was a local small business with no "public safety" concerns.

In addition, I already have a solid, verifiable employment history, a clean driving record going back nearly 30 years, and a clean criminal background.

While filling out the paperwork several employees were carrying on a conversation peppered with several uses of "fuck" and other blue language. As an adult and a skydiver I am accustomed to hearing and occasionally using such language, but it seems kinda low class to speak this way in the company of guests on whom you might want to make a positive impression.

After filling out the form, I left it on the receptionist's desk and walked out, having concluded I don't want anything to do with these people. Meanwhile, they've been interviewing applicants for at least two weeks and still haven't filled the position. I long ago lost the ability to take seriously the complaints of business owners who claim that they can't find good help when they seem so eager to begin the relationship by treating people like crap.

All I want is a brief meeting with a supervisor to learn what the job is all about and determine if I might be the right man for the position. If so, I can then provide all relevant information. I'm not afraid of a background check. While I'm disgusted by the whole drug testing thing (because it's an insulting procedure that does NOTHING to ensure workplace sobriety) I'll reluctantly go along with it to get the job. But what is the point? Why do you need my credit report (which, by the way, makes me look good)? How does your company suffer if you DON'T treat people this way?

I've done a wide variety of things over the years, including food service, manufacturing, shipping/receiving, electronic assembly, sheet metal work, drilling, and radio, and have done very well at all of these jobs. I have solid references. What more do you need? What are you afraid of?

Cheers,
Jon S.

you want a litigation culture, you pay the price for it

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[markd_nscr986 0]

Strictly to CTA (Cover Their Ass).....in todays litigious society.........it is pretty much SOP

I had a handshake agreement(they recruited me) to go to work for someone and it was still necessary for the background check,pee test,credit report,etc.etc.

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[storm1977 0]

If I owned a business I would require drug testing....

I would rather have an employee that did not use drugs than one who did. Wouldn't You?

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[GTAVercetti 0]

Quote

If I owned a business I would require drug testing....

I would rather have an employee that did not use drugs than one who did. Wouldn't You?

No. If the drugs are not being used on premises and do not affect quality of work, I don't care what they do in their personal life.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[artistcalledian 0]

Quote

If I owned a business I would require drug testing....

I would rather have an employee that did not use drugs than one who did. Wouldn't You?

is it legal to demand somebody takes a drug test?

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[ReBirth 0]

Quote

it legal to demand somebody takes a drug test?

You can't "force" them to comply. But it's perfectly legal to not hire them or fire them if they don't.

[tigra 0]

The only problem is, the tests are easy enough to fool and "hard drugs" like coke and heroin only stay in your system for a few days whereas pot- relatively harmless- stays in your system for weeks and you can test positive after having been around it without partaking. I'd rather hire someone who smoked a little weed on the weekends than someone with a serious coke habit who managed to stay clean for 2 days in order to fool a drug test.

[tigra 0]

I agree with you. You should not need to consent to a background and credit check until you are much further along in the interview/ hiring process. "Passing" that and the drug test can be a condition of hiring, but not interviewing. (As in we have the right to rescind this offer......) I balked at one job because of the consent form for the background check. I was sure it could not be done without my current employer being notified in some way and I hadn't officially accepted the position or given notice. I just didn't like how it was handled.

[ryoder 1,384]

Quote

If I owned a business I would require drug testing....

I would rather have an employee that did not use drugs than one who did. Wouldn't You?

US fatalities per year, (source: ABC News):
- Tobacco: 250,000
- Alcohol: 100,000
- All illegal drugs combined: 5,000

Drug testing is the McCarthyism of our generation. It is a baseless witch hunt that ignores the real problems. But it is Politically Correct so we gotta do it!

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Andy9o8 0]

To those of you who said it's ok, I call bullshit.

This isn't an issue of utility; it's an issue of ETHICS. Don't you realize that?
The key is not whether the information could be useful to the prospective employer, ergo allow the intrusion, a purely utilitarian analysis. The key is what will be the complexion of a civil, just and HUMANE society -- an ETHICAL analysis.

By a strict utilitarian analysis, anything that produces an orderly society is justified. Political repression? Police surveillance cameras in the home? Neighbors denouncing neighbors to the FBI? All of those will produce a society that superficially is very orderly, and may even keep crime rates at lower levels than in a free and open society. But is that the society you want to live in? For most people, no.

Now apply this to the employment application process. Sure, having all that raw data gives the employer greater insight into the candidate. But where do you stop? WOuld you want your employer knowing all the books you buy, the magazines you read, the websites you frequent? Certainly those things might tell a lot about a someone's personality. What about health records? A person with some health problems in their past may have attendance problems. Disclose that? They may be seeing a psychiatrist to deal with anxiety and self-esteem issues left over from an abusive childhood. Disclose that? Current drug tests not only reveal illegal drugs, they also reveal LEGAL drugs which you might be taking but are none of anyone else's damned business. If you're a 50 year old man, would you want your employer to know you take Viagra? If you're a 19 year old unmarried woman, would you want your employer to know you're taking birth control pills? What about if you're managing depression with Paxil? Or you're treating early-onset baldness with Minoxidil? Or treating genital herpes you picked up at age 18 with Aciclovir? Or are using Ritalin or Straterra to manage ADD? The same analysis applies to credit checks - you gain some information, but the price of that intrusion into such intimately private areas is that society loses another piece of its soul.

Sure, using drug tests and credit checks provides more raw data to employers about applicants than not using them - but where do you stop? It really IS a slippery slope, folks; and the longer you've been alive, the more you realize the truth in that. Having a strict and orderly society is nice. But having a civil, just and HUMANE society is so much better; however, it's messy and difficult to achieve, and involves having to make compromises for the sake of the greater good to society -- much the way having a free and democratic country, and not a dictatorship is messy, difficult, and requires reasonable compromises for the greater good. It's a matter of ETHICS, and that's why my vote is an emphatic NO.

[ReBirth 0]

So don't work for them then. No one is making anyone else work for a company with these rules. and no one should make a company compromise their standards.

[storm1977 0]

You can say what you want... you obviously do drugs, so to you it should be socially acceptable.

But, Drugs are illegal. Pot is a drug.

So, if I had the choice of 2 employees both with identical experience etc, but one smoke pot and one didn't, I would hire the one that didn't.

The same is true of smoking cigaretts.

BTW- I would like to see a study which showed this. Average number of sick days taken per year by people who smoke pot vs. people who do not smoke pot. I would bet money there is a corrilation!!!!

Chris

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[livendive 8]

Quote

So don't work for them then. No one is making anyone else work for a company with these rules. and no one should make a company compromise their standards.

Exactly. If enough quality candidates refuse to work for companies with such hiring criteria, they will have to either change the way they do business or settle for lower quality employees. If it affects their bottom line, you can bet they'll change.

Candidates don't *have* to submit to such checks, and employers don't *have* to demand them. Society deems whether they are acceptable.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[tigra 0]

As far as sick days- my guess is you would see a greater corrolation amoung people who drink on average more than one alcoholic drink per day. and also people who smoke. Both legal activities that have an impact on your day to day health AND workplace productivity. At least illegal drugs are generally consumed during no working hours.

[ryoder 1,384]

Quote

You can say what you want... you obviously do drugs, so to you it should be socially acceptable.

By your reasoning, everyone who backed the repeal of prohibition must have been a drunk.

Quote

But, Drugs are illegal. Pot is a drug.

NEWS FLASH: Alcohol and nicotine are drugs.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[billvon 2,396]

>you obviously do drugs

Let's keep the personal attacks out of this, please.

[justinb138 0]

Quote

But, Drugs are illegal. Pot is a drug.

So is speeding. Would you want your employer putting a GPS unit in your car to ensure that you obeyed the posted speed limit all the time?

[storm1977 0]

And the award for the most irrelevant comment of the day goes to..... Justin.

Try to stay on topic.

BTW - They do put Goveners and GPS system in company vehicle for this exact reason. My Brother-In-Law drives and 18 wheeler for Dunkin Donuts and, his truck can NOT travel faster than 70mph...

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[billvon 2,396]

>Would you want your employer putting a GPS unit in your car to
>ensure that you obeyed the posted speed limit all the time?

Suppose your choices were job 1 for $100,000 a year with a GPS in your car, or $50,000 a year without. Would you be willing to not speed for $50k a year? Would you be annoyed if somene passed a law that said (essentially) you could not get the $100,00 a year job?

[livendive 8]

Quote

You can say what you want... you obviously do drugs, so to you it should be socially acceptable.

But, Drugs are illegal. Pot is a drug.

So, if I had the choice of 2 employees both with identical experience etc, but one smoke pot and one didn't, I would hire the one that didn't.

One need not be a pothead to see the problems with the "war on drugs." I'm certainly not. Anyhow, drugs are only illegal because theocrats think they should be able to force others to bow to their moral standards, and the socialist leanings of society think others need to be protected from themselves (though nobody wants such laws to protect them from themself). I don't care whether an employee of mine smokes pot, snorts coke, or shoots heroin on his own time, as long as he's clear-headed and productive on my time.

Quote

The same is true of smoking cigaretts.

Actually, I can see valid reasons why employers might not hire smokers...unproductive smoke breaks and cheaper health insurance.

Quote

BTW- I would like to see a study which showed this. Average number of sick days taken per year by people who smoke pot vs. people who do not smoke pot. I would bet money there is a corrilation!!!!

I'd bet there's an even bigger correlation between sick days taken per year by parents and expecting parents versus non-parents.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

So don't work for them then. No one is making anyone else work for a company with these rules. and no one should make a company compromise their standards.

. Anybody who reads my post, and reads it carefully, and understands what I'm saying and why (even if they disagree with me) will realize that you completely miss my point.