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HendrickVDecken

26 jumps and about to jump a 1.2 wl fully elliptical!

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Long time creeper, first time poster.

I'm FRESH off my A license and I've acquired a Crossfire1 149 main. My last jump was on a Spectre 170.

I've stood up 24 of my 26 landings and hit bullseye on more than 10 of those. The two I didn't land were due to tripping while trying to walk it out.

I want your opinions on if I should jump it or not.

I'd like to add that I get it, it's a more aggressive canopy, if I drop my toggle I'm going to eat dirt and break my leg. But can't every canopy be flown conservatively?

I trust myself to flair adequately and on time, what else should I watch out for?

I'm prepared for the inevitable onslaught that follows.

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If you approach this intelligently you can of course do this safely with complete success.

The thing is you're post to some degree shows a certain lack of understanding. Yes all canopies can be flown conservatively but that word has different meanings for different canopies. Some canopies like to go fast. The depend on that speed for there inflation. Some canopies behave differently at different angles of attack. And the behave differently in there pitching behavior to regain that angle of attack. So when you go through turbulence the old school answer was to pull a little breaks. Now with smaller canopies some manufactures actually recommend keeping your air speed up, staying in full flight. Saw a guy fuck him self up trying to fly a small canopy conservatively. He was coming in over a plowed field, probable warm producing a little turbulence, no big deal. He was making small corrections with his toggles. "Flying conservatively". But every time he pulled on a break line the canopy would rock back and then surge forward when he let up. All canopies do this but this was a high performance highly efficient wing. These were not but turns, he was just keeping it on heading. When ever a canopy rocks forwards like that it unloads the front of the airfoil. The nose gets soft. Well it rolled under on him, careflight.

Point of the story. It's important to understand an fly your canopy in a way appropriate to that canopy. Being conservative can have a very different meaning from one canopy to another. The canopy is not ridiculously unreasonable for you. That is not the problem. And it can be flown conservatively. But if you try to fly it like a student canopy you can get your self into trouble. Some times flying conservatively means keeping up your speed not slowing it down. It's a different mind set. If you can make that adjustment you will be fine but you'd better set down and drink a beer with some one while the explane to you how this new canopy works, cause it's just fundamentally different in some respects.

Lee
Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

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You need to ask yourself why. Why did you buy this canopy and why do you want to jump it?

I went from a spectre 150 to a xfire2 129 (similar downsize) at around 450 jumps. I wanted to learn speed induced landings and the spectre was not the right wing. I remember thinking that a straight in approach on the xfire was faster than I could ever make my spectre go. I scared the shit out of myself more than a few times while I was learning to fly this wing.

Also, a 1.2 wl on a xfire is under the recommended wl. I'm assuming you bought this without talking to any of your instructors and because it is a 'cool' canopy. Otherwise you probably wouldn't be looking for validation on the interwebs.

The issue is not just flaring on time or dropping a toggle and breaking your leg. People always think of their standard landing, when you should to be thinking about a panic landing when you cant make it back to the dropzone and you have to navigate to a tight spot and your going downwind. With your experience I doubt you've ever had to think about that, which tells me you are not ready for this wing.

The issue is that everything is going faster. Your decisions need to be made faster and the ground is coming faster. You have less time to make choices or analyze your situation. People better than you have died by disregarding these truths.

Sure, you can probably jump it and probably not die, but I don't think anybody with a few years in the sport, or who has seen their friends die or get maimed under canopy, or who actually cares for your well being would think its a good idea.

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I appreciate your replies. The reason I've downsized so quickly is mostly because I haven't felt a difference in canopy speed or control from a 240 to a 170. I figured what's another 21 square feet? I want to start flying my canopy around rather than driving a school bus through the sky.

But now the riggers at my DZ have me worried because of all this fully elliptical talk.

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I think you'll find the change in the type of canopy far greater then in the size. You would notice only a small difference if you went to a 150 specter. The Crossfire is just a significantly different type of canopy. It's a great canopy it just doesn't fly the same. You'll love it once you get to know it.

LaBlonk gave a talk one on kind of the history of their design development. They have a whole spectrum of canopies. It was interesting because he addressed the different niches that they were meant to fill. He grouped them into flat and steep trimmed canopies. He didn't really understand the obsession that people had with rectangular vs tapered vs simi elliptical, vs fully elliptical. It confused him and he's the designer. He showed the plane forms of a couple of them on top of each other and it was like... really? That's it? These canopies are radically different but you wouldn't know it from look at there plane form. There is clearly other magic in it so forget the whole fully elliptical thing.

Make no mistake you are moving from a sedan to a sports car. Think ford torsue to a corvet. It's not a Lamborghini and defenantly not an F1 but it is a sports car and you are going to have to make adjustments in how you fly it.

Lee
Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

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Fully ellipticals are just WAAAY more responsive in all regards, especially compared to a Spectre.

Openings - they are more high performance too. Admittedly I've no idea how a xfire opens at a 1.2WL, but all full ellipticals I've jumped have danced around a lot, requiring considerably more care in all regards from tossing the PC until its open and stable above your head. Bad body position probably wasn't an issue under a 170 spectre, it may be a notable one under a 149 xfire.

IIRC an xfire is only recommended from a 1.4WL, which doesn't mean you should get a smaller one so you hit the 1.4, but that the canopy probably won't fly too well at a 1.2WL. It may not keep the pressurisation in the cells under turbulence, or possibly many other "it may not" type things.

The posts above have been far more considerate, reasonable and informative than I was expecting to see from a post like this on here, and I'm sure the fire is coming soon - queue the MJ memes - but at 26 jumps you really don't know much at all about any canopy or canopy flight in general. Theory maybe, practice pretty much zero. After passing a driving test you don't then drive a sports car at 30mph for your daily drive. Don't do the same with your parachute. Get the right tool for the job, and a 1.2WL xfire2 especially at 26 jumps, is not the right tool for you.

My opinion anyway. Others may vary.
Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

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The reason I've downsized so quickly is mostly because I haven't felt a difference in canopy speed or control from a 240 to a 170.



That's part of the problem. You should have felt a difference, even if it was very small.

Recognizing such performance differences may help you understand some of the dangers associated with higher performance canopies.

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The title of your post says it all. Bad idea. Very bad idea.

Even though people move to elliptical canopies much sooner than they used to, flying one with literally a handful of jumps is ludicrous. At this stage of the game you don't know even a little of what you don't know and haven't developed a tiny fraction of the skill necessary to fly anything but a "square", lightly loaded canopy.

Progression should come with a combination of skill development and education. At 26 jumps you simply have very little of either.

Go get some canopy training from competent trainers and get some jumps under your belt. In the end you'll be glad you did.

Don't be part of the problem. We have enough of those guys.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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degeneration


IIRC an xfire is only recommended from a 1.4WL, which doesn't mean you should get a smaller one so you hit the 1.4, but that the canopy probably won't fly too well at a 1.2WL. It may not keep the pressurisation in the cells under turbulence, or possibly many other "it may not" type things.



Straight from PD...

D. It is not necessary to heavily load a high performance canopy to make it fly and
land correctly.
This is a common misconception even with many experts. If a person’s canopy is
going the speed they are comfortable with, then that should be fine. If they’re not
getting good landings on a properly designed canopy flown at a lower wing loading,
they’re probably not flaring it correctly.

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/wingload.pdf

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degeneration


Openings - they are more high performance too. Admittedly I've no idea how a xfire opens at a 1.2WL, but all full ellipticals I've jumped have danced around a lot, requiring considerably more care in all regards from tossing the PC until its open and stable above your head. Bad body position probably wasn't an issue under a 170 spectre, it may be a notable one under a 149 xfire.



Would it make you feel better about the situation if you learned I have 3 hours in the tunnel? I'm stable during deployment. But I get what you're saying and I see how a poor body position could be more damaging on a Xfire versus a Nav (the student canopy I started on).

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D. It is not necessary to heavily load a high performance canopy to make it fly and land correctly.
This is a common misconception even with many experts.



True.. in general, within certain limits, under certain conditions.
False... in particular.
The Crossfire isn't a PD product and has relatively small nose openings. It and other canopies with similar noses may not be suitable at low wing loadings. As degeneration stated, Icarus themselves do not recommend it.

If you were an experienced jumper / had canopy courses / had read DZ.com for the last 10 years, you'd know already.

Openings:
Hours in the tunnel may help with the pull position. (If you actually practiced holding the pull position.) It can't help much with dealing with the dynamics of opening or flaring out from a track.

Anyway, good luck. You may well do OK. If nothing goes wrong, you know your emergency procedures, you're never caught in heavy traffic approaching landing, and you have a good sense for flaring, you could be fine. But you're doing yourself a disservice by downsizing so quickly.

(Edit: I double checked archive.org for icaruscanopies. Initially they recommended 1.0 - 2.0 WL for the Crossfire "1", but later changed to 1.4 - 2.1. So the 1.4 value as seen for the Crossfire 2 still holds for the previous model.)

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HendrickVDecken

***
Openings - they are more high performance too. Admittedly I've no idea how a xfire opens at a 1.2WL, but all full ellipticals I've jumped have danced around a lot, requiring considerably more care in all regards from tossing the PC until its open and stable above your head. Bad body position probably wasn't an issue under a 170 spectre, it may be a notable one under a 149 xfire.



Would it make you feel better about the situation if you learned I have 3 hours in the tunnel? I'm stable during deployment. But I get what you're saying and I see how a poor body position could be more damaging on a Xfire versus a Nav (the student canopy I started on).What about when you have to land out in a field with fences or trees or a small back yard? How is that tunnel time going to help you. If everything goes perfect the Xfire might be fine. I landed off today. I was so happy I was on my Sabre2 150 and not my Katana 150....so happy.

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I would say "don't feed the troll" but if you're real 36 years in the sport flying a crossfire 2 for 7 plus years at a 1.6 w/l pm me:)

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .


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You shouldn't jump a spectre 150 let alone the elleptical! ANY canopy 150 or smaller is a high performance canopy because the line are shorter and so is theiment of the pendulum.

Standing up landings are not the measure of canopy skills. Tunnel time has nothing to do with seploying a main or habdling a high speed spin malfunction.

Just make sure there is popcorn for the spectators, video and do it before your obama care goes away.

Bye
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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A small text change so you have a more realistic view on your future ;)

"when I drop my toggle I'm going to eat dirt and break my leg neck."

(Aye Captain.... going to jump this phantom ship and be doomed to roam the skies until judgment day?? :P)

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HendrickVDecken

***
IIRC an xfire is only recommended from a 1.4WL, which doesn't mean you should get a smaller one so you hit the 1.4, but that the canopy probably won't fly too well at a 1.2WL. It may not keep the pressurisation in the cells under turbulence, or possibly many other "it may not" type things.



Straight from PD...

D. It is not necessary to heavily load a high performance canopy to make it fly and
land correctly.
This is a common misconception even with many experts. If a person’s canopy is
going the speed they are comfortable with, then that should be fine. If they’re not
getting good landings on a properly designed canopy flown at a lower wing loading,
they’re probably not flaring it correctly.

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/wingload.pdf

It's an Icarus canopy not PD, with a different nose design. I'm not a rigger, but I see a response to this has already been given.

HendrickVDecken

***
Openings - they are more high performance too. Admittedly I've no idea how a xfire opens at a 1.2WL, but all full ellipticals I've jumped have danced around a lot, requiring considerably more care in all regards from tossing the PC until its open and stable above your head. Bad body position probably wasn't an issue under a 170 spectre, it may be a notable one under a 149 xfire.



Would it make you feel better about the situation if you learned I have 3 hours in the tunnel? I'm stable during deployment. But I get what you're saying and I see how a poor body position could be more damaging on a Xfire versus a Nav (the student canopy I started on).

No. It really won't make me feel any better at all.

Here's my really bad advice: Maybe you should just go an jump it. Maybe you'll be fine. Maybe you won't. Maybe if you are not fine, you'll get out of it with only minor injuries, get your wake up call, look back with hindsight and see your bad choices, then move forward with better choices. Maybe you won't. Maybe you'll get in a situation that you have no idea how to deal with, or think you do know how to deal with, but actually don't, and maybe you'll be seriously injured or die.

Is it worth the risk?

And from my own experience with this - I've been learning to swoop. Took courses, done Flight 1 100 and 200 series stuff. Was having fun practicing and really enjoying it. Didn't jump for four months, and on my first jump back (19th Dec.) I thought I could do exactly what I had been doing on my previous jumps. I was wrong. I hit the ground hard and was very lucky to not break my legs. PCL damage in my right knee, still waiting on the MRI, but that would appear to be the worst of it. I can still walk. For that I know I'm lucky. I immediately knew and could see all my bad decisions that day. I'm not likely to be jumping for at least another four months now due to this injury.

I know my currency isn't going to improve over the next few years, so now with glorious hindsight, I'm selling my smallest rig which I jumped on that day and will be upsizing and no longer attempting swoops until I'm current again and have had more coaching.

Don't wait till your hurt to make the right decision.
Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

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The heart of the problem is the fact that our industry has grown accustomed to the use of "pounds per square foot" as our way of quantifying parachute size. This leads to the erroneous belief that a given "wing-loading" will result in similar performance for all parachutes regardless of size. This is most certainly not the case, and is dangerously misleading for light weight jumpers striving for that magical one pound per square foot wing-loading. A 120 is inappropriate for someone with less than 100 jumps no matter how much they weigh. So, what do we do? Firstly, we honor the differences in parachute sizes, and downsize very carefully. We make our steps downward based on actual ability and frequency of jumping, and we look for any excuse we can to upsize. In addition to remaining conservative with regards to canopy size, we must go to greater lengths to understand the nature of performance and size.

http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Canopy_Control/Wing-loading_and_Parachute_Performance_1155.html




Quote

So I came up with a list of canopy control skills everyone should have before downsizing. Some are survival skills - being able to flat turn would have saved half a dozen people this year alone. Some are canopy familiarization skills - being able to do a gentle front riser approach teaches you how to judge altitude and speed at low altitudes, and how to fly a parachute flying faster than its trim airspeed, a critical skill for swooping. It's important to do these BEFORE you downsize, because some manuevers are a little scary (turning at 50 feet? Yikes!) and you want to be on a larger canopy you're completely comfortable with before trying such a thing.

The short version of the list is below. Before people downsize, they should be able to:

http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Canopy_Control/Downsizing_Checklist_47.html


Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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davenuk

it sounds like you were hoping people would reinforce your beliefs and you would be happy.

have you talked to the CI at your DZ?, mine would laugh in my face i think :D.



I would let him jump it....... after he had few hundred jumps on bigger and square canopies...

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i put nearly 50 jumps on a Storm 170 oaded at about 1.1 maybe just a bit more. I was landing where i wanted, standing up impressing myself how well i was doing actually. I had done a flight 1 course as well.

The FIRST time i didnt land in the landing area i made 2 bad decisions close to the ground. I crashed into a parking lot, broke a femur close enough to the hip that it required 2 rods instead of 1 with screws. I also needed to have 1 of the 4 broken bones in my foot rebuilt and much to the surprise of the doctors, my physiotherapist AND many of my friends i was able to walk again. 18 months limping, and almost 3 years later i still go to physio.

53 weeks after the crash i upsides back to a 230, re took a first jump course and have taken multiple canopy courses, and a few 1:1 canopy coaching days. Shit happens fast on almost any canopy. But it can happen faster. I'm not saying don't do it, just saying that in my case if i would have put more time on bigger canopies, and taken the coaching before i downsized as well as had some more experience. I surely would not have had a $40043 hospital Bill (for 54 hours of being in there), nor would i be able to predict weather, and i wouldn't have needed more than a year off of skydiving.

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Keithor

i put nearly 50 jumps on a Storm 170 oaded at about 1.1 maybe just a bit more. I was landing where i wanted, standing up impressing myself how well i was doing actually. I had done a flight 1 course as well.



Edited for clarity:
For the "cautionary tale for the original poster", you started on that canopy very soon after student status, right Keith?
Thanks for sharing.

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yes Peter. Jump 35. So i think what Peter was trying to do here is what i was trying to do. Just to tell you that my situation was similar to yours in terms of rapid downsizing. I did not make the move to elliptical though.

I was also fine. For 49 jumps.

I started skydiving when i was older, married, a little more settled in life etc. I knew I'd kill myself if i started when i was 18.

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