i'm NOT christian... and proud of it!!!

[SudsyFist 0]

Quote

Almost as farcical as the immaculate conception. What a joke to take that one literally. I'm sure every 16 year old pregnant girl wishes they could get away with that line. "Honestly, I didn't have sex, it was an immaculate conception."

T-shirt for you.

[Stumpy 256]

LOL!!!!

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[billvon 2,384]

>and why was Darwin's theory only cooked up 140 years ago when
> there was no electron microscope to proof the crap and lies . . .

Electron microscopes really aren't that useful for biological studies. (Hint - has something to do with scale and the environment the specimen has to be in.)

>science of today is now so advanced that the have proved darwin
>false . . .

Every day there are new links we didn't see before. We discover new intermediate species. We see new DNA fragments that we can trace back to our common ancestor. We see new species evolve.

>it's one vs the other there's no in between ...

Some of the smartest people on the planet have no trouble accepting both god and science. They are not in competition, if you understand both of them. I'd recommend Stephen Gould's book "Rocks of Ages" for a good overview of this.

One of the problems with this whole debate is that there are some religious types who believe that the issue is not the science, the issue is the survival of their religion. And that's missing the point. The world turned out to be round, and religion survived. The earth turned out not to be the center of the universe, and religion survived.

----------

BTW a few notes from the link you posted:

>Would you skydive if you knew that the person who packed your
>parachute publicly announced the ultimate failure of the mechanisms
>in your chute?

Most packers know how any parachute is likely to fail; fabric degradation (caused by handling and UV) that renders the fabric unable to handle the stresses in a hard opening. Most packers also know that even a correctly assembled, maintained and packed parachute can malfunction. Yet we still jump! We jump not because our parachutes are perfect, but because they work well enough.

Similarly, evolution is not perfect; neither the process nor our understanding of it. But it is good enough to produce us, and our understanding of it is good enough to predict things like bacterial mutation and population speciation.

>"At all events, anyone with even a nodding acquaintance with the
> Rubik cube will concede the near-impossibility of a solution being
>obtained by a blind person moving the cubic faces at random."

Ah, but a blind many manipulating that same cube all day, every day, for 5 billion years, will solve it thousands of times. All it took for life to start was one time. Which is an argument for, not against, evolution.

Many people get hung up on 'nearly impossible.' Something nearly impossible, looked at over a long enough period of time, becomes a near certainty.

> Troops of monkeys thundering away at random on typewriters
>could not produce the works of Shakespeare . . .

Quite true in the real world. However, the beauty of our form of life (that is, life that reproduces and has heritable traits) is that, once started, it literally writes itself. So in the monkey scenario, all that monkey has to do is get this on paper:

"When shall we three meet again
In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"

And from there, the rest of Macbeth starts writing itself. Now, it's going to take billions of years, and trillions of false starts, to get even that much down at random. The good news is that we _had_ billions of years.

>Many different types of dogs can be developed this way, but
>they can never develop a cat by selectively breeding dogs.

Of course we could. To be more accurate, we could breed a new species that is externally identical to a cat. If you can turn a wolf into a chihuahua, you can turn a greyhound into a cat.

>Natural selection can never extend outside of the DNA limit. DNA
>cannot be changed into a new species by natural selection.

This statement indicates a grave misunderstanding of genetic heritability. DNA does change, from generation to generation, although its basic structure - its language, if you will - stays the same. After it has changed enough you have a new species. If it changes a little you do not.

>Diamond back rattle snakes cannot be selectively bred
>until you have one with wings that jumps in the air and flies away.

http://www.flyingsnake.org/

Give em another 50 million years and those snakes will become flying wings.

> New variations of the species are possible, but a new species has
> never been developed by science.

A list of a dozen or so new species observed over the past few hundred years:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

>If natural selection were true Eskimos would have fur to keep warm . . .

. . . or they would evolve brains and the ability to cover themselves to keep warm.

> If natural selection were true humans in the tropics would have
>silver, reflective skin to help them keep cool, but they don't. They
>have black skin, just the opposite of what the theory
>of natural selection would predict.

Ah, here is another misconception about evolution. Evolution does not produce ideal results, because there is no one deciding what the ideal result is. Instead, it simply produces results that are good enough. Melanin is a good enough sunscreen that humans in the tropics don't get cancer; evolution stops there. Want proof? Note those people are still alive. Evolution worked, even if it did not produce what you consider an ideal result.

Some other examples -

Our eyes work pretty well, but they are inside out; our retinas have light sensitive cells on the back and the 'wiring' on the front. It leads to blind spots and detached retinas. But they work well enough, so we kept them. The octopus did better; their eyes got wired the right way round. Random chance favored them when their eyes were just getting started; the process of natural selection kept that random chance.

>The theory of natural selection is wrong because it cannot
>create something in the DNA that wasn't there in the beginning.

DNA consists of four basic amino acids. Any DNA can be made with those four pairs. So in a way DNA is like an alphabet. You can't write any english story/novel/essay with letters that weren't there at the beginning - but you can write incredible things with those measly 26 letters, from the Bible to Moby Dick to Gone with the Wind to the Constitution of the US.

[skysaintj 0]

You wrote :DNA does change, from generation to generation, although its basic structure - its language, if you will - stays the same.

And you're comparing the alphabet that we created with DNA that created itself ? it's very difficult to come to terms with that idea...but i'm trying.

I agree - dna will change your cat into a cat wityh more hair , less hair , bigger eyes , smaller eyes etc etc but never into a bird - science has tried these test i refer again see abiogenisis is not possible....root : we evolved from a soup cause lighting hit the earth ?

The question we must ask is: Is it more logical, rational, and scientific to believe in evolution, or it it more logical, rational, and scientific to believe that , "In the beginning God created?" Lets look at the evidence.

Does life arise spontaneously by chance, as evolution teaches? No! The basic axiom of all biology is biogenesis: Life only arises from life; it does not come from nonliving matter. Does this more logically fit evolution or creation.

What about the teaching of evolution that everything is evolving ever upward to greater and greater complexity, all by chance? The evidence is the second law of thermo-dynamics. The laws of physics show that everything goes from organization to chaos. This is known as entropy. Does this more logically fit evolution or the biblical account of creation and the fall?

What about the fossil record? Darwin said that if evolution were to be true we would find the evidence in the fossil records by finding millions of transitional forms or, "missing links." What we find, in fact, is everything appearing fully formed after its own kind in the fossil record with no evidence of transitions! Does this more logically fit evolution or the biblical creation? In Genesis Chapter 1 doesn't God say He created everything, "after their own kind?"

It never ceases to amaze us that when we were in kindergarten they taught us that a frog turning into a prince was a nursery fairy tale, but when we got to college they told us that a frog turning into a prince was science! The Bible says that only a fool says in his heart, "There is no God". By following evolution we have literally become a nation of fools following false, unscientific data.

where did all the rules come from that govern nature ... how do you know wrong from right ?
Why is there anything instead of nothing ?

I would rather believe that i was created by the living and loving God than believe i evolved from a soup.

Time is the atheists god.....

Science can now say that they believe our universe was created for us to live in.

Also see link : http://theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/21PbAr/Apl/FlewTheist.htm

Prof. Antony Flew, 81 years old, is a legendary British philosopher and atheist and has been an icon and champion for unbelievers for decades. His change of mind is significant news, not only about his personal journey, but also about the persuasive power of the arguments modern theists have been using to challenge atheistic naturalism

and also :

Fulfilled Prophecy In The Bible Of Jesus Christ The Messiah
Fulfilled prophecy is one of the incontrovertible evidences of our faith. Get familiar with these verses in the Old Testament and their corresponding verses in the New Testament. They will not only be a great witness tool for you, they will help strengthen your faith.

A person might ask, "what about Nostradamus?" Well, the criterion for a prophet of God is 100% accuracy! The Bibles prophecies are specific and fulfilled 100% of the time. Read [Deuteronomy 13:1-11, 18:20-22] for God's requirement for a prophet.

Nostradamus for one, used forbidden methods for his prophecies,

[Deuteronomy 18:9-14]. His prophecies were also vague, and ambiguous, and could fit into almost any time frame or event. So, one thing that we know for a fact is that his prophecies did not come from God! If a prophecy is not 100% accurate, 100% of the time, this false prophet is speaking his own words and not the words from God.

Another thing to keep in mind is the Bibles uniqueness concerning prophecies; no other religion has prophecies written hundreds of years before the actual event! Only Christianity has prophecies such as the ones that predicted Jesus' birthplace and manner of death. Of the thousands of prophecies in the Bible, not one has ever failed to come to pass.

Listen to what Dr. Norman Geisler says about Bible prophecy:

"The Bible is the only book which challenges unbelief by foretelling the future, staking its authority on the ultimate, certain, and complete fulfillment of its detailed predictions. It has been said that there were some 109 Old Testament predictions literally fulfilled at Christ's first coming, and that, of the 845 quotations from the Old Testament in the New Testament, 333 refer to Christ. There are some 25 prophecies concerning the betrayal, trial, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus uttered by various prophets over a period of some five hundred years. These were literally fulfilled although the chances against such fulfillment have been shown to be one chance in 33,554,438. If the law of Compound Probabilities is applied similarly to all 109 predictions fulfilled at Christ's first coming, the chances that they could accidentally be fulfilled in the history of one person is one in billions."

Anyway i don't wanna judge anybody , but would like to try and put truth forward...it's everybody's own free choice what they wanna believe.

God gave us free will to make a CHOICE (real
love is chosen, not forced). By providing us life on earth and revealing his
nature while giving us a choice to show we really love him.

I think people think if they gonna start giving God a chance it's gonna take the fun outa life...it does not for me.

-

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[SudsyFist 0]

Quote

I think people think if they gonna start giving God a chance it's gonna take the fun outa life...it does not for me.

The same could be said about sobriety.

[Zenister 0]

yawn... yet another Christian Mouthpiece quoting the same tired unsupportable assertions and basic misconceptions...

of course the lack of original thought and critical thinking skills is revealed in the failure to qoute the source for their simple cut and paste 'thoughts'

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[billvon 2,384]

> agree - dna will change your cat into a cat wityh more hair , less hair ,
>bigger eyes , smaller eyes etc etc but never into a bird . . .

Evolution changes squirrels into flying squirrels. It changes tiny shrew-like mammals into bats. It changes fish into flying fish. If a cat ended up in an environment where flight would improve its chances of reproducing, and there was a way to evolve the trait (i.e. trees to leap from) you'd eventually see flying cats.

>Does life arise spontaneously by chance, as evolution teaches? No!
>The basic axiom of all biology is biogenesis . . .

Where did you hear that?

>Life only arises from life; it does not come from nonliving matter.

It did at one point. Fortunately it only had to happen once.

>What about the teaching of evolution that everything is evolving ever
>upward to greater and greater complexity, all by chance?

It's not evolving by chance! It is being selected for survival by the simple expedient of allowing less-fit organisms to die out. It is quite deterministic in that way.

>The evidence is the second law of thermo-dynamics. The laws of
> physics show that everything goes from organization to chaos.

Uh, no. A cloud of gas is pretty chaotic. A spinning black hole, with associated relativistic axial jets, is a remarkably structured astronomical object. Yet a cloud of gas can eventually produce that very structured object through nothing more than basic physical forces.

Take a look at Devil's Causeway in Ireland. Acres of perfect hexagons, created by nothing more than geologic forces. Or the perfect shape of a snowflake, again created by random meteorological forces. The universe has plenty of examples of areas moving from lesser to greater organization.

>What about the fossil record? Darwin said that if evolution were to be
> true we would find the evidence in the fossil records by finding millions
>of transitional forms or, "missing links."

No he didn't. He said that we would find transitional fossils, not that there would be millions. (Thankfully, we DON'T have all our ancestors piled under us! Imagine the stink. And where would our oil come from?)

>What we find, in fact, is everything appearing fully formed after its own
> kind in the fossil record with no evidence of transitions!

?? Transitional fossils are pretty abundant. We share a common ancestor with chimpanzees and bonobos; from that recent ancestor we have so far identified these evolutionary stages:

Ardipithicus - 5 to 4 million years ago
Australopithecus - 4.2 to 1.6 million years ago
Homo habilis - 2.2 to 1.6 million years ago
Homo erectus - 2.0 to 0.4 million years ago
Homo sapiens archaic - 400 to 200 thousand years ago
Homo sapiens neandertalensis - 200 to 30 thousand years ago
Homo sapiens sapiens - Present

We have found transitional fossils for whales (land animals that went back to the sea) horses and birds. The whale ones are pretty cool; shows them gradually losing their hind legs and pelvises as those were no longer needed.

>where did all the rules come from that govern nature ... how do you
>know wrong from right ?

Same way you know - because my parents taught me.

>I would rather believe that i was created by the living and loving God
> than believe i evolved from a soup.

That's great! If it brings you comfort, then believe whatever you choose.

>Anyway i don't wanna judge anybody , but would like to try and put
>truth forward...it's everybody's own free choice what they wanna believe.

I agree 100%. Everyone should believe whatever they, personally, want to believe. Such beliefs are best kept out of science classes, though, because science and not belief is taught there.

>I think people think if they gonna start giving God a chance it's gonna
> take the fun outa life...it does not for me.

And I think that the people who ignore science in favor of a myth are missing some of the most amazing stories ever told. The story of the octopus eye. The story of the evolution of birds, and the rise of cooperation as a survival strategy. But that's just me.

[Zenister 0]

Quote

I would rather believe that i was created by the living and loving God than believe i evolved from a soup.

you can believe whatever you wish.. crystal spheres for heavens and flights of singing angels to support the firmament if it makes you sleep better...

but it wont have much basis as fact.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[skysaintj 0]

Quote

yawn... yet another Christian Mouthpiece quoting the same tired unsupportable assertions and basic misconceptions...

of course the lack of original thought and critical thinking skills is revealed in the failure to qoute the source for their simple cut and paste 'thoughts'

You comment on the general post/reply instead of giving some valueble input concerning questions asked etc....

ps - easier to copy and paste than to type it all

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[skysaintj 0]

Quote

> agree - dna will change your cat into a cat wityh more hair , less hair ,
>bigger eyes , smaller eyes etc etc but never into a bird . . .

Evolution changes squirrels into flying squirrels. It changes tiny shrew-like mammals into bats. It changes fish into flying fish. If a cat ended up in an environment where flight would improve its chances of reproducing, and there was a way to evolve the trait (i.e. trees to leap from) you'd eventually see flying cats.

I agree. but again no cat will become a bird(DNA)

>Does life arise spontaneously by chance, as evolution teaches? No!
>The basic axiom of all biology is biogenesis . . .

Where did you hear that?

i wouldn't know anything if i didn't see ,hear or feel it.

>Life only arises from life; it does not come from nonliving matter.

It did at one point. Fortunately it only had to happen once.

>What about the teaching of evolution that everything is evolving ever
>upward to greater and greater complexity, all by chance?

It's not evolving by chance! It is being selected for survival by the simple expedient of allowing less-fit organisms to die out. It is quite deterministic in that way.

>The evidence is the second law of thermo-dynamics. The laws of
> physics show that everything goes from organization to chaos.

Uh, no. A cloud of gas is pretty chaotic. A spinning black hole, with associated relativistic axial jets, is a remarkably structured astronomical object. Yet a cloud of gas can eventually produce that very structured object through nothing more than basic physical forces.

Take a look at Devil's Causeway in Ireland. Acres of perfect hexagons, created by nothing more than geologic forces. Or the perfect shape of a snowflake, again created by random meteorological forces. The universe has plenty of examples of areas moving from lesser to greater organization.

>What about the fossil record? Darwin said that if evolution were to be
> true we would find the evidence in the fossil records by finding millions
>of transitional forms or, "missing links."

No he didn't. He said that we would find transitional fossils, not that there would be millions. (Thankfully, we DON'T have all our ancestors piled under us! Imagine the stink. And where would our oil come from?)

Go see how many transitional fossils the human race have found , evolution does not happen in a day so there should be many BUT there's almost nothing.

>What we find, in fact, is everything appearing fully formed after its own
> kind in the fossil record with no evidence of transitions!

?? Transitional fossils are pretty abundant. We share a common ancestor with chimpanzees and bonobos; from that recent ancestor we have so far identified these evolutionary stages:

If evolution was true we would have evolved from soup into a single celled org and etc etc..eventually we are the only spiritual beings on the planet cause animals and insects are not but in millions of years from now they will evolve into consciousness right ?

who identified them ?

Ardipithicus - 5 to 4 million years ago
Australopithecus - 4.2 to 1.6 million years ago
Homo habilis - 2.2 to 1.6 million years ago
Homo erectus - 2.0 to 0.4 million years ago
Homo sapiens archaic - 400 to 200 thousand years ago
Homo sapiens neandertalensis - 200 to 30 thousand years ago
Homo sapiens sapiens - Present

We have found transitional fossils for whales (land animals that went back to the sea) horses and birds. The whale ones are pretty cool; shows them gradually losing their hind legs and pelvises as those were no longer needed.

yip , the same crap they're still teaching at school... it's already being taken out of some schools here since science has proving evolution wrong more and more everyday.

>where did all the rules come from that govern nature ... how do you
>know wrong from right ?

Same way you know - because my parents taught me.

you don't know my parents..

>I would rather believe that i was created by the living and loving God
> than believe i evolved from a soup.

That's great! If it brings you comfort, then believe whatever you choose.

Thanks !
>Anyway i don't wanna judge anybody , but would like to try and put
>truth forward...it's everybody's own free choice what they wanna believe.

I agree 100%. Everyone should believe whatever they, personally, want to believe. Such beliefs are best kept out of science classes, though, because science and not belief is taught there.

>I think people think if they gonna start giving God a chance it's gonna
> take the fun outa life...it does not for me.

And I think that the people who ignore science in favor of a myth are missing some of the most amazing stories ever told. The story of the octopus eye. The story of the evolution of birds, and the rise of cooperation as a survival strategy. But that's just me.

long live discovery cannel and National Geographic !!

Cool..this thread could go on forever as i have seen before - always interesting views

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[Bosveld 0]

I have read up some on this evolution vs. creation arguments, and the conclusion I have come to is: We don't know exactly what happenned. There is very respectable scientists and clever people on both sides of the argument. I, as the average Joe, don't have all the evidence or found it out for myself or studied it myself. All I can do is listen to clever people's oppinions, and now I must conclude my believe system from there.

I'll tell you what I do believe and have found from my own experience. I do believe in a spiritual realm that influence this realm. I have tried and tested the theory of what you do comes back to you. I have been a bad person and found that things go wrong in my life and that I am somehow empty and depressed. When I realized what was going on and turned back to God my life turned for the better.

That's just my personal experience though. And how can you listen to my opinion and take it as fact? The best thing to do is listen to as many opinions as possible, then your own knowledge or opinion would be better formed. Try things with an open mind and test it.

I think if you truly want to be good, that is all that is needed and Love will find you and put you on the right path. My God is Love and all that is good. I don't agree with the churches always, but some churches have good guidelines. I don't go to church, I have my own personal relationship with God that nobody can touch. I believe in God because I can feel a connection with my soul, and when I ask for it Love gets poured into my heart and makes life easier.

But like I said that's my believe, you can do what you want. I've never tried to force my believe system onto anyone. I have told people to try praying before they go to bed every night when they've asked for help, just because it worked for me. That's just my opinion, I love to hear other people's opinions about religion and God, I believe it's bettered my opinion about it.

Whatever the mind can conceive and believe, will be true!

[rasmack 0]

If it interests anyone, maybe I should point out that the Vatican itself has taken a stance supporting evolution. Here's a couple of clickys for you:

A pope for our times: why Darwin is back on the agenda at the Vatican

Quote

Cardinal Poupard’s statement clarified the acceptance of Darwinism and rightly asserted that religious belief is compatible with the theory of evolution. He also gave a further indication that the mindset of Benedict XVI may be a good deal more modern than had been expected.

Evolution in the bible, says Vatican

Quote

THE Vatican has issued a stout defence of Charles Darwin, voicing strong criticism of Christian fundamentalists who reject his theory of evolution and interpret the biblical account of creation literally.

I guess that would be you skysaint...

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[skysaintj 0]

Quote

If it interests anyone, maybe I should point out that the Vatican itself has taken a stance supporting evolution. Here's a couple of clickys for you:

A pope for our times: why Darwin is back on the agenda at the Vatican

For sure !

Many Christians believe in a old earth - God created what we see today over many years (obviously God's 6 day creation is not 6 X 24h days)

My point is : we did not evolve from primeval soup and everything that goes with that specific theory.

Quote

Cardinal Poupard’s statement clarified the acceptance of Darwinism and rightly asserted that religious belief is compatible with the theory of evolution. He also gave a further indication that the mindset of Benedict XVI may be a good deal more modern than had been expected.

Evolution in the bible, says Vatican

Quote

THE Vatican has issued a stout defence of Charles Darwin, voicing strong criticism of Christian fundamentalists who reject his theory of evolution and interpret the biblical account of creation literally.

I guess that would be you skysaint...

I've been in a roman catholic church and will never ever go there again out of free will ... cause that way of religion scares even me.

Sounds like they're only catching up with mr darwin now it's gonna be a long trip..

They are cardinals and pope's ...science is as new to them as a dummy ripcord to a whuffo.
There are pro's out there that does not care about religion as much as the truth and spend everyday looking for it.

-

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[skysaintj 0]

Reply : >

Awesome !!

Could not have explained it better...

I don't go to church either but i know my creator and the way He works my life to the better.
Without Him i'm empty

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

I would rather believe that i was created by the living and loving God than believe i evolved from a soup.

Exactly, you would rather believe that. Not because it is more plausible but because it makes you feel better.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

I have read up some on this evolution vs. creation arguments, and the conclusion I have come to is: We don't know exactly what happenned. There is very respectable scientists and clever people on both sides of the argument. I, as the average Joe, don't have all the evidence or found it out for myself or studied it myself. All I can do is listen to clever people's oppinions, and now I must conclude my believe system from there.

Ahh, intelligent designs greatest victory.

There is no real scientific controversy, submitted papers in favour of evolution outnumber those against by thousands to one. Yet somehow the ID propaganda machine continues to portray this 'rift' splitting the scientific community and people lap it up.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rasmack 0]

Quote

There is no real scientific controversy, submitted papers in favour of evolution outnumber those against by thousands to one. Yet somehow the ID propaganda machine continues to portray this 'rift' splitting the scientific community and people lap it up.

Yes, that's what you get for giving a matter an honest scientific treatment. The only papers submitted and accepted in support of ID are from creationist institutes in creationist journals. As such they can not qualify as science. Any research where the result is given in advance is per definition not science.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[skysaintj 0]

OK two sides of the coin is what you saying cause we are not making valid points or producing enough evidence to clear where you have set your bar.

Then pls tell me what about all the prophecies that have been foretold and happened exactly like it was predicted as history is fact and how do you respond to someone's claim that the Bible is not inspired? Is there a way to prove inspiration or, at least, intelligently present evidence for its inspiration? The answer is "Yes!" One of the best ways to prove inspiration is by examining prophecy. There are many religious books in the world that have many good things to say. But only the Bible has fulfilled prophecies--with more fulfillments to come. The Bible has never been wrong in the past, and it won't be wrong in the future. It claims inspiration from God (2 Tim. 3:16). Since God is the creator of all things (Isaiah 44:24), then He is also the creator of time. It is under His control. Only God, then, would always be right about what is in the future, our future.
Fulfilled prophecy is strong evidence that God is the author of the Bible because when you look at the mathematical odds of prophecy being fulfilled, you quickly see a design, a purpose, and a guiding hand behind the Bible. If just one prophecy failed, then we would know that God is not the true God, because the creator of all things, which includes time, would not be wrong about predicting the future. Deut. 18:22 says, "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously" (NIV). Isaiah 46:9-10 says, "Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."
One approach to use with an unbeliever is to turn to Psalm 22 and read verses 12-18. This is a detailed description of the crucifixion--1000 years before Jesus was born. After you read the section ask him what it was about. He'll say, "The crucifixion of Jesus." Then respond with something like, "You're right. This is about the crucifixion. But it was written 1000 years before Jesus was born. And on top of that, crucifixion hadn't even been invented yet. How do you think something like this could happen?" After a brief discussion, you could show him (or her) a few other prophecies like where Jesus' birthplace was prophesied (Micah 5:2), that He would be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14), that His side would be pierced (Zech. 12:10), etc.

The Mathematical Odds of Jesus Fulfilling Prophecy

The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, 'we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 1017." That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that "we take 1017 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep.
"Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man."
Stoner considers 48 prophecies and says, "we find the chance that any one man fulfilled all 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10157, or 1 in

100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

The estimated number of electrons in the universe is around 1079. It should be quite evident that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies by accident."

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[skysaintj 0]

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I have read up some on this evolution vs. creation arguments, and the conclusion I have come to is: We don't know exactly what happenned. There is very respectable scientists and clever people on both sides of the argument. I, as the average Joe, don't have all the evidence or found it out for myself or studied it myself. All I can do is listen to clever people's oppinions, and now I must conclude my believe system from there.

Ahh, intelligent designs greatest victory.

There is no real scientific controversy, submitted papers in favour of evolution outnumber those against by thousands to one. Yet somehow the ID propaganda machine continues to portray this 'rift' splitting the scientific community and

Yip , Darwin said something 140 years ago and boom that's law in a matter of seconds...talking about community lapping up a theory
scientifically proven more wrong than right.

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[mr2mk1g 10]

bwahahahahahaha

I'm having a really funny day to day.

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we take 1017 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep

Silver Dollars are what, an inch square?

Are you seriously suggesting that the State of Texas is only 508.5 square inches?

haahahahahahaha

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The estimated number of electrons in the universe is around 1079.

There are more electrons than that in my ass. Seriously! Hell there are more electrons than that in a single hair on my ass!

hahahahahahahahahaha

This guy really is a "Stoner"

[RMURRAY 1]

I am reading The Pagan Christ by Tom Harpur at the moment. It explains how Christianity got off track...good book.

rm

[skysaintj 0]

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bwahahahahahaha

I'm having a really funny day to day.

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we take 1017 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep

Silver Dollars are what, an inch square?

Are you seriously suggesting that the State of Texas is only 508.5 square inches?

haahahahahahaha

Quote

The estimated number of electrons in the universe is around 1079.

There are more electrons than that in my ass. Seriously! Hell there are more electrons than that in a single hair on my ass!

hahahahahahahahahaha

This guy really is a "Stoner"

>>

OK ..see link : this text box does nor cater for mathematical figures to the power of whatever ..

if you want the figures ...go get'em @

http://www.carm.org/bible/prophecy.htm

oops

so what's the odds smiley ???

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[jakee 1,254]

I'll help the guy out, I believe he meant 10^17 and 10^79.

See skysaint, don't say I never do anything for ya

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[skysaintj 0]

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I'll help the guy out, I believe he meant 10^17 and 10^79.

See skysaint, don't say I never do anything for ya

Cool dude ... fast and on the button !

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[mr2mk1g 10]

see ya gotta proof read. Glad you didn't though, it gave me a laugh.