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DemolitionDarby

Crossfire 2

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Hey guys,

I'm about to purchase my first rig and I'm seriously looking at getting a 150 Crossfire 2 for my main. Do you think I should hold off until the Crossfire 3 comes out? Or is there another high performance canopy similar to a Crossfire 2 that's zippy and fun I should be looking into?

Also, what are your thoughts on a Crossfire 2 in general?

PS I have a B license now, not just an A. Waiting on USPA to send me my new card to update info.

Thanks!

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It doesn't matter what the wing loading any 150 is considered a high performance canopy and not suitable for your experience. If people are telling you you should get this size fet new friends/advisers. If you don't believe us make sure your health and life insurance are paid up. Yes, many people have lived through decisions like this inspite of themselves. Doesn't make it right or mean that you will. A lot haven't.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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Exactly what the others said, a 150 crossfire 2 is not an appropriate first canopy (Esp for a sub 100 jump person). It is a high performance canopy and requires at least a couple hundred jumps.

From their website:
The Crossfire represents a massive leap forward in performance from any other 9 cell in the world. Its swoop capability almost rivals cross-braced canopies such as the EXTreme FX, while maintaining numerous desirable flight characteristics; a long recovery arc, incredible swoop distance and unparalleled openings.

The Crossfire 2 shares the same impressive capabilities as its predecessor, plus some of the most responsive toggle and riser control inputs of any canopy in the market. It has a light front riser pressure and an even longer recovery arc.

The Crossfire 2 is a highly elliptical, constant cell aspect ratio, closed nose, fully surface shaped inflatable wing capable of unrivaled performance. It will out perform any non cross-braced 9 cell available.

The Icarus Crossfire is a High Performance Elliptical ZP 9-cell canopy specifically designed for experienced ram air pilots. The Crossfire is highly and truly elliptical in its planform shaping, on both the leading and trailing edges. The cell widths vary across the canopy, maintaining a constant cell aspect ratio to control distortion, and drooped wing tips to minimize wing tip drag.

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What are you currently jumping? How many jumps do you currently have?

What is your wingloading on what you are jumping now, and what would it be on a 150XF2?

Have you read Billvon's "Downsizing Checklist"? (in the safety articles)
Have you read Brian Germain's W/L chart and accompanying article? (sticky in the canopy forum)

Do you have good health care coverage?
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Your post from 5th of July this year:
"The issue I’m having is accuracy and standup landings on a 220 main. ...
But, now that I’ve down sized to a 220 every landing I’ve had has been fast, always over shot (no matter where I start my final), and ends with me PLFing or looking like a ballplayer sliding into home plate."

I guess this answers your question about getting a 149 XF2 ...
--------------------------------------------------

With sufficient thrust,
pigs just fly well

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Crossfire 2 would not be a good choice for all the reasons above, PLUS it is really meant to be loaded at 1.4 or more I gather, as below that it doesn't have as good flight characteristics (from what I've read).

A lot of guidance on WL is that you should have about 400 jumps before you start loading a canopy at 1.4... I gather from your profile info, if correct, that you don't quite have that number of jumps yet.
Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

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Hey guys,

Thanks for all the input, and I promise I'm not a troll.

It was a serious question because for the last 30 jumps I've had, I've been flying 170's and 168's with standup landings every single time.

To be quite honest, it's fairly boring for me. Because I've landed in cross winds, stronger down winds, no winds, making low 180's into a stand up landing, gotten out of line twist, toggle fires, even jumped a rig with a 170 in it that I had jumped before with out issue and ended up with reserve part of the rig pressed up against the back of my head locking it in place with chin strap instead of a chest strap; and I still stood that landing up. I'm assuming the leg straps got loose in free fall or on the plane ride up. Because they where TIGHT when I got on.

So, because of those experiences, I thought well maybe I could handle a HPC like the Crossfire 2 and be OK even though on paper it doesn't look that way.

I'm 170lbs maybe 190 - 200 fully loaded. And yes I do have REALLY good health insurance for those asking lol.

So, I understand I'm still new, and wanting to run before I can walk, and you guys (those that have replied) all have 1'000's of jumps because you either narrowly escaped a tragic landing and learned from it, or played it safe and followed progression. So I really do appreciate the input! I guess I just wanted to see what the general opinion would be from others.

So, thank you for the resounding "ARE YOU FUCKING STUPID?!" I'll just get a Pilot 168, jump that for another couple hundred jumps and then move into a HPC some time after I get my C license and a wingsuit.

Cheers,

-D

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DemolitionDarby

making low 180's into a stand up landing



Dude, seriously, stop right now doing that. I've got a friend killed a couple of months ago precisely because of that. He had literally 10 times your number of jumps. There are countless other examples of the same thing. I know that for you standing up 30 jumps in a row seems like mastering the canopy, but standing up is the most basic thing ever. It means nothing and it isn't, nor will ever be, a reason to go for something faster.

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If you are already bored something is wrong. Whatever it is, it won't be fixed with a smaller less stable wing that is less forgiving. Other than beating the "boredom" what are your goals? Congratulations on learning to stand up. That makes you a toddler instead of a crawling baby. Seriously, what you do next depends on what direction you want to go and your goals. The opinions you will get here will all be the same. You are not ready for what you are talking about. But we don't know you. So if you feel you must advance to more exciting canopy flying there is only one good answer for you. As many canopy courses as you can get. As quickly as you can get them. People like you used to be on a path to near certain disaster. But now real training and mentoring is available. Get it, save your life and keep skydiving interesting. All at the same time.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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I know what you’re all thinking. You’re all thinking this n00b is going to get himself killed or hurt and he’s a dumbass for even thinking this way. Well, at least I have the common sense to ask around and get feed back instead of just going to a dealer and buying one.

I like getting advice online instead of in person (depending on the situation, obviously) because people are brutally honest here. In person it’s a little more friendly or wishy washy. So when I say I appreciate the feedback, and it’s truly noted, I’m not kidding. I really am thankful for the reality check you’ve all given me.

Noted. Canopy control classes it is. No more low 180’s and find a way to make the canopy ride fun without getting a faster canopy. Looks like I got some training to take so I can work on new skill sets SAFELY on a rig I’m familiar with so I don’t go in by accident.

I appreciate everyone looking out for me. Seriously, I really do!

Just a little about me, I’ve been in high risk sports my entire life and have always pushed myself further than my skill sets should allow and walked away.

But what I’m coming to terms with is that this is skydiving, it’s a much different beast, and I have to come at it with a different mindset than I’m used to. Which means just because I think I got something, doesn’t mean I actually got it. Which, for someone like me is frustrating and hard to do because historically if I get something, I got it 100% and want to move on to the next thing.

So, I guess I’ll chill out, slow my roll and take baby steps with coaching supervision and briefings if I want to try something new or downsize in the future. Not only to keep myself safe, but to keep my fellow skydivers safe too.

Thanks again, guys.

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If you wish to make some good decisions then find a canopy coach/mentor to guide you, start learning to swoop in baby steps (straight finals, straight finals while landing on rears, straight finals with added speed etc...) and work your way up to 90's and 180's. That should be enough to keep things exciting for couple hundred jumps more and then start thinking about a high performance canopy...

Or just get xfire2 right now, jump couple dozen jumps and pound in. After that you can spend next few decades watching skydiving videos from your wheelchair, the choice is yours...

ps. You never mentioned any flying skills, have you tried any of the following or are comfortable in handling them (rear riser stalls, toggle stalls, one-sided rear riser stalls, bail outs)...

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DemolitionDarby

I know what you’re all thinking. You’re all thinking this n00b is going to get himself killed or hurt and he’s a dumbass for even thinking this way. Well, at least I have the common sense to ask around and get feed back instead of just going to a dealer and buying one.

I like getting advice online instead of in person (depending on the situation, obviously) because people are brutally honest here. In person it’s a little more friendly or wishy washy. So when I say I appreciate the feedback, and it’s truly noted, I’m not kidding. I really am thankful for the reality check you’ve all given me.

Noted. Canopy control classes it is. No more low 180’s and find a way to make the canopy ride fun without getting a faster canopy. Looks like I got some training to take so I can work on new skill sets SAFELY on a rig I’m familiar with so I don’t go in by accident.

I appreciate everyone looking out for me. Seriously, I really do!

Just a little about me, I’ve been in high risk sports my entire life and have always pushed myself further than my skill sets should allow and walked away.

But what I’m coming to terms with is that this is skydiving, it’s a much different beast, and I have to come at it with a different mindset than I’m used to. Which means just because I think I got something, doesn’t mean I actually got it. Which, for someone like me is frustrating and hard to do because historically if I get something, I got it 100% and want to move on to the next thing.

So, I guess I’ll chill out, slow my roll and take baby steps with coaching supervision and briefings if I want to try something new or downsize in the future. Not only to keep myself safe, but to keep my fellow skydivers safe too.

Thanks again, guys.



Hey,

Some thoughts, coming from a fellow n00b.

I think that you handle what might seem like harsh advice well. However, I am a bit surprised, given this reasonable attitude, that you got this far still thinking that doing low 180s and getting a 150sqft Crossfire as a first canopy are good ideas.

I also come from another "risky" sport (inline vert skating), but there are two important things about skydiving that I noticed:

1. The consequences of any mistakes are potentially much much worse. It's not just broken limbs anymore, and "wear your fucking helmet" is not sufficient advice.
2. There is a lot of knowledge around. Whether it's about equipment or technique, many smart and talented people have thought and written about how to minimize the risks.

With those two things in mind, it seems quite stupid to push your limits on your own (at this stage, anyway) -- it is dangerous and can be easily avoided by learning from others. Seek information before you try something new. Personally, I find that this also helps me with the being bored part.

And sure, posting a question on the forum is a legitimate way to seek information, but here are a few other suggestions, arguably more efficient:
* ask experienced people, take a course
* read the SIM
* read Brian Germain's The Canopy And Its Pilot
* read through the articles posted on the website
* read through the forums here (taking everything, including this post, with a teaspoon of salt)

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You did inline vert too? Same here. But, I was more into street skating. Ya know jumping off roofs, hitting 25+ kinked handrails etc. I also did some free rock climbing up 50’+ faces, tight rope walking 15ft up, lots of gymnastics and circus arts too among many other things.

Let me clarify a few things.

1. The low 180’s was me pushing the limits of what I could (knowing now that I shouldn’t have) been doing a couple of times because, well, honestly I could and I never felt unsafe, or started them from a height I knew would bury me into the ground (350, 400’ ft up on a semi-docile wing). I also never buried the toggle all the way down. It was much more smooth than just whipping a 180 as fast and hard as I could. I regret mentioning it now. I guess I was trying to make a point (and a bad one at that). Whoops.

However, the S&TA and coaches definitely gave me some shit about it after the 3rd or 4th time I did it, or maybe it was just because that was the first time they saw it. I don’t know.

2. Part of the reason I wanted a crossfire 2 150 was because I had the blessing of the S&TA, a coach and the DZ owner to get a 170 crossfire 2 that was on the market that I really wanted. But, I guess fortunately someone else beat me to the sale.

So getting to why I wanted a 150…

A 170 to a 150 in my mind (up until today) wasn’t that huge of a leap to make since my progression has been thus far:

260
220
210
190
170/168.

But after getting my B license and doing the canopy control class that’s required to get your B now, I guess that license (along with previous said blessing, standing up in all conditions and recovering successfully from quite a few mals on a 170) gave me a little bit more confidence in my abilities that (I’m now realizing) realistically just aren’t there.

So I put it up online as a litmus test to see what the reaction would be here. Because if I show up to a new DZ with 60ish jumps and a HPC based on the reactions here, it would be a good indicator of how people would react in real life.

Also, it’s a form of self preservation to get truly honest non-biased opinions.

So, with everything I’ve learned here, and I’ve really listened to what everyone has said I’ve decided that when I purchase my first canopy I’m going to get a Pilot 168. Those are easy to pack, fun, yet forgiving enough that if I get myself into a situation I could recover from it without burying my face into the ground at warp speed.

So, thank you Dropzone for confirming what I already knew in the back of my head, yet, needed to have it confirmed by others to drown out the voice that says: “FUCK IT! JUST DO IT!”

Again, thank you.

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degeneration

Crossfire 2 would not be a good choice for all the reasons above, PLUS it is really meant to be loaded at 1.4 or more I gather, as below that it doesn't have as good flight characteristics (from what I've read).

A lot of guidance on WL is that you should have about 400 jumps before you start loading a canopy at 1.4... I gather from your profile info, if correct, that you don't quite have that number of jumps yet.



I was jumping a Crossfire 2 at the bottom end of the wing loading and it was lots of fun. No way would I recommend it to someone with less than a good few hundred jumps though.

I never liked the Saffire 2 but for a long time jumped Sabre 2's and enjoyed them.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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170 to a 150 is, percentage wise, the biggest leap of all. There's a reason USPA recommend 500 jumps before jumping one, no matter how heavy you are.

I think you do well to listen and learn from these guys. As someone who is just starting out in canopy control, I can tell you there is a lot to learn.

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DemolitionDarby


So, thank you for the resounding "ARE YOU FUCKING STUPID?!" I'll just get a Pilot 168, jump that for another couple hundred jumps and then move into a HPC some time after I get my C license and a wingsuit.
-D



Good choice. Maybe not the wingsuit part, those things are dangerous :P but I'm glad you've made the right canopy choice.

I stopped reading after seeing this so apologies if anything has changed.

Edited to add: It seems you have the right attitude and listen to those of us that have been there, done that, and seen friends go because of it. Keep that attitude mate, nice one, just maybe ask before you try things in future, for example the 180's, there are other reasons they're not advised over your own safety so there may well be things you overlook. Also think about canopy courses, you'll learn a lot and be way more suited to making a change like this in the future.

For what its worth, I did my first 500 jumps on a Safire 170 before working my way onto crossfires, it was a good move as I made mistakes on it that could have been a lot worse on other canopies. I now compete regularly on a Petra 66 with (touch wood) no metal work, slow and steady really pays off!

Cheers
Max

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nigel99

I was jumping a Crossfire 2 at the bottom end of the wing loading and it was lots of fun.



I thought it was a pig lightly loaded (1.4). As such...I wish I'd spent my money on a Sabre 2. Beyond superior openings on the XF2 (obviously) the Sabre 2 was a much better all around performer. The XF2 felt "soft and spongy" for lack of a better term.

Much better alternatives to spend your dollars on, I think.

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hillson

***I was jumping a Crossfire 2 at the bottom end of the wing loading and it was lots of fun.



I thought it was a pig lightly loaded (1.4). As such...I wish I'd spent my money on a Sabre 2. Beyond superior openings on the XF2 (obviously) the Sabre 2 was a much better all around performer. The XF2 felt "soft and spongy" for lack of a better term.

Much better alternatives to spend your dollars on, I think.

:)
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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I wouldn't rule out a safire. They are really sweet canopys and very comparable to the Pilot. Both have sweet openings, I just like the safire better. Close enough that personal preference is probably the real factor.

Plus you could get a Safire3 and as you know when you go up a number, its automatically better. Can you imagine how awesome a Pilot7 is!

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