RkyMtnHigh 0 #1 August 2, 2005 Help me here...I just don't get it... I went to a Catholic school K-8, nuns crackin the paddle and all the rules BS and all...go to public school for middle and high school..back to Catholic education for college in Colorado at Regis University (Jesuit university)... Trying to sort out "religion" as an adult. Talked to my parents tonight about our recent losses in our sport..and once again they think my elevator doesn't go to the top and I've lost my marbles to stay in the sport. I tell them my normal "justification" and analogies of how I95 is more of a hazzard than skydiving and flying planes...but they still think I'm suicidal and say I need to get "right" with God, find a good church, etc etc.. I responded that I live every day with a good conscience, have no hate or anger in my heart, love unconditionally, forgive where appropriate, and ethics are in check, etc...so why won't I GO to Heaven? I feel that my God loves me unconditionally and doesn't judge as "they say" and he knows the true intentions of my heart which are good...why wouldn't he want me there? _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #2 August 2, 2005 QuoteHelp me here...I just don't get it... I went to a Catholic school K-8, nuns crackin the paddle and all the rules BS and all...go to public school for middle and high school..back to Catholic education for college in Colorado at Regis University (Jesuit university)... Trying to sort out "religion" as an adult. Talked to my parents tonight about our recent losses in our sport..and once again they think my elevator doesn't go to the top and I've lost my marbles to stay in the sport. I tell them my normal "justification" and analogies of how I95 is more of a hazzard than skydiving and flying planes...but they still think I'm suicidal and say I need to get "right" with God, find a good church, etc etc.. I responded that I live every day with a good conscience, have no hate or anger in my heart, love unconditionally, forgive where appropriate, and ethics are in check, etc...so why won't I GO to Heaven? I feel that my God loves me unconditionally and doesn't judge as "they say" and he knows the true intentions of my heart which are good...why wouldn't he want me there? Their God sucks compared to yours! Edited to add: Your posting deserves a much more thoughtful response than the above, but my conclusion is unchanged. Many religious people seem to have a habit of molding their God to fit their views, which I don't have any problem with, but to do so and then present their God to the world as the one and only true God is just plain dishonest. I'm sure it is obvious by now that I am not in any way, shape or form a religious or even a spiritual person, but even if I were, I'm pretty sure that I would feel that the most important thing in life is simply to live life in an honest way and to treat other people well. I've met you only through your posts and would have a difficult time believing anyone that would claim that you don't score very high on both counts. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RkyMtnHigh 0 #3 August 2, 2005 They have a defined definition of "judgment day" which I suppose doesn't coincide with my lifestyle Organized religion seems so judgmental. They practice on Wednesdays and Sundays..I love my God everyday..in the shower, in the car, making coffee...my spirituality is EVERY DAY, ALL DAY...he is part of my EVERY DAY...I am who I am because I know he loves me and accepts me with all my faults. I just wish my parents understood it. _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #4 August 2, 2005 QuoteI responded that I live every day with a good conscience, have no hate or anger in my heart, love unconditionally, forgive where appropriate, and ethics are in check, etc...so why won't I GO to Heaven? I feel that my God loves me unconditionally and doesn't judge as "they say" and he knows the true intentions of my heart which are good...why wouldn't he want me there? OK I want to say first of all that I'm not smart enough to say where you or anyone else is going after you die. But you seem to be operating under some misconceptions here. You seem to think that God is some guy with his hand on the Damnation Switch, and that he could let you off if he wanted to, but he is so dogmatic that if you don't follow all the little rules of religion, he is just itchin' to pull the switch & send you into hell. That's not the way it works. Look, I'm a Christian who is not sure if Hell exists as described. What I am sure of (as a Christian) is that turning towards God is a conscious decision of the individual. And God has left that entirely up to you. The only downside is that if you don't turn towards God, you're going your own way. You're believing that you are wiser than all creation, and the One who created it. I am a molecular biologist (currently doing research on HIV), and I am continually awed at the mountain of wisdom that the human race DOES NOT have, and that is only in the field of the mechanisms of biology. In the realm of spirituality, I can only assume we are dwarfed even further. Getting back to your question, God DOES want you there! Go ahead & don't worry about it! God definitely wants you there, the only obstacle is: do you want God there? It's all in your hands! The doors are wide open! Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #5 August 2, 2005 QuoteThey have a defined definition of "judgment day" which I suppose doesn't coincide with my lifestyle Organized religion seems so judgmental. They practice on Wednesdays and Sundays..I love my God everyday..in the shower, in the car, making coffee...my spirituality is EVERY DAY, ALL DAY...he is part of my EVERY DAY...I am who I am because I know he loves me and accepts me with all my faults. I just wish my parents understood it. I devote much of my conscious awareness to being a really shallow smartass. Kind of runs in the family. Occasionally, my smartassness actually brings up some interesting thoughts. One of the best examples happened years ago when I was a student at the University of Texas at Austin. During the spring when the weather is good, there are any number of people and groups proclaiming their philosophies on an area of campus called the West Mall. On one such day, I was walking through the West Mall and saw a booth that had a large sign practically begging for attention from smartasses like me. The sign read, "Free Test to Find Out Whether you are Going to Heaven". How could I resist? I walked up and asked to take the test. Had I put even 1 millisecond of thought into it beforehand, I would have known what the test was. "The test consists of one and only one question, and here it is: Do you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior? After taking a contemplative pause, I responded with, "HELL NO!!!". What followed was the longest, thickest silence you could possible imagine. Me: "Well......do I go to Heaven after I die?" Jesus Guy: "....well, well....NO--you CANNOT!" Me: "Why Not?" Jesus Guy: "Because you must accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior before you can go to Heaven!" I walked away quite pleased with my smartass self, but that exchange has stuck with me for all these years. I am absolutely galled by the idea that I, a guy who generally tries to live an honest life and treat other people well, am destined to Hell and, if he answers "yes" to the big question, Charles Manson would gleefully be accepted into Heaven. Is that what religious people are selling--a "get out of Hell free" card? I'm not buying. I've never been religious--not even as a kid--but if there had ever been any doubt in my mind, that day would have forever erased it. I have NO clue what your parents are like, but if I were to meet them, I'd tell them that they did a very good job with you. If that's not good enough for them or their God, then I'll pass on any invitation to their Heaven. I'd probably consider it to be a major disappointment. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #6 August 2, 2005 OK, to waltappel, I gotta reference the C.S.Lewis quote again. (the one about attacking Christianity by setting up an example of it suitable for a 6-year-old). Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloudseeker2001 0 #7 August 2, 2005 I am with you! I do not understand why people feel they need to beg for forgiveness from a god they fear in order to get into Heaven. "Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance, others mean and rueful of the western dream" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RkyMtnHigh 0 #8 August 2, 2005 QuoteI am with you! I do not understand why people feel they need to beg for forgiveness from a god they fear in order to get into Heaven. I dunno who THEIR God is, but I'm not afraid at all and I know he accepts me as I am..my weaknessess and imperfections...and loves me unconditionally. I DO have faith in THAT _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #9 August 2, 2005 QuoteGo ahead & don't worry about it! God definitely wants you there, the only obstacle is: do you want God there? True. It's his DZ. If you don't like him then why would you want to hang with him for eternity? ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RkyMtnHigh 0 #10 August 2, 2005 I makes mistakes because I'm "human" ..and he loves me anyway! My parents don't get that part...it's okay to make mistakes and be human... _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #11 August 2, 2005 QuoteI responded that I live every day with a good conscience, have no hate or anger in my heart, love unconditionally, forgive where appropriate, and ethics are in check, etc...so why won't I GO to Heaven? The way I believe is the only one who will stand in judgement of you on judgement day is God. He is the only one who knows all your sins and omissions. It is my belief that He is an all-loving and truly merciful God. He has given you your own conscience. Dig deep inside yourself and follow that conscience. No person including our parents have the right to stand in judgement of ourselves. I see our life here on earth as a constant journey. We should be continually growing in what is good. Sounds to me like you are on a good path. However, you have not yet gotten to the end of your path. I think all of us can say about ourselves that there is always room for improvement. This is where our personal conscience comes in. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #12 August 2, 2005 yep.QuoteI makes mistakes because I'm "human" ..and he loves me anyway! My parents don't get that part...it's okay to make mistakes and be human...yep. Jesus' ministry had a strong theme about people being judgemental cold-hearted a-holes who would use their cold-hearted piety as a source of false pride. As has been said before, what the human race needs is some humility. Yes, we're all human, we all make mistakes, and God loves us in spite of that. We're all in the same boat, and we should recognize that. And only God can get us out, not our own actions. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #13 August 2, 2005 QuoteAs has been said before, what the human race needs is some humility. That's right, I said it!!! Hmmm...that wasn't very humble of me. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #14 August 2, 2005 ahh, you deserved it! that was a cool post. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #15 August 2, 2005 Quoteahh, you deserved it! that was a cool post. I don't know if I have ever been quoted before...in a good way. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #16 August 2, 2005 QuoteThe way I believe is the only one who will stand in judgement of you on judgement day is God. He's the only one good enough to judge. Plus, he's the only one who can see into your heart and know your intentions and attitude toward him. Your parents can't see inside you. They obviously mean well and love you a lot. Your parents will always be your parents! Trust me; I'm WAY over the hill, and my parents (well, mostly my mother) still want to hold me accountable to their standards! Yours are probably doing the best they can, but when it comes to your life, they can't make your decisions for you. That's between you and God. He knows your heart and whether it's "right" with him. (I'm referring to your statement that they say you need to get "right" with God.)Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #17 August 2, 2005 QuoteOK, to waltappel, I gotta reference the C.S.Lewis quote again. (the one about attacking Christianity by setting up an example of it suitable for a 6-year-old). In a sense, isn't that one of the driving ideas behind religion--to create a framework for understanding and dealing with the world that even the most simple-minded can understand? Creationists claim to know all about how the universe was created. To me, that is the finest example of intellectual arrogance that I have ever run across. Of course their version is so simple that a 6-yr-old can understand it. I'm pretty simple-minded myself and religion brings to mind the saying, "If it looks like a duck, walks like and duck, and quacks like a duck, then chances are......" To me, the religious view of the universe looks like THE BIG LIE, and if THE BIG LIE could walk and quack, then it would be a 3-0 score. I have never considered it even remotely capable of passing the smell test. For what it's worth, that's my 6yr old view. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #18 August 2, 2005 >I responded that I live every day with a good conscience, have no > hate or anger in my heart, love unconditionally, forgive where > appropriate, and ethics are in check, etc...so why won't I GO to > Heaven? I feel that my God loves me unconditionally and doesn't > judge as "they say" and he knows the true intentions of my heart > which are good...why wouldn't he want me there? ?? The only God important to you is yours. He (or she, or whatever) will determine how you deal with religion, and that's all that matters. Trying to get the right combination of other people's beliefs so you can 'get into heaven' is a fool's errand; there is no commonality between all beliefs. >but they still think I'm suicidal and say I need to get "right" with >God, find a good church, etc etc.. Many people use God as a shield. They read the Bible carefully and find the passage they want (which is easy; the Bible says just about anything you could want if you read it with enough prejudice.) Then they can say that it's not _them_ - it's what God wants. Often people use this as a shield of righteousness to insulate themselves from the fallout of their decisions. In the end, of course, it is _their_ feeling that they don't like you jumping, probably because they fear you will be injured and they want to protect you from that. God really doesn't take a position on the relative risks of driving vs. skydiving. The religious stuff is just how they express their concern. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skolem45 0 #19 August 2, 2005 Being a good person is all that matters. Don't let anyone make you think you're somehow bad because you don't fit their standards. They are they, and you are you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #20 August 2, 2005 Since each religion can claim it's own share of miracles, including those religions we giggle at and think are for weirdos only it would seem to make sense that God is pretty tolerant of our imaginations, and that he/she/it's quite happy to follow whatever rules we want to set for he/she/it. Unless you're in one of those weirdo duality religions where anything not god is anti-god - cos then you have an excuse for anything. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #21 August 2, 2005 QuoteIn a sense, isn't that one of the driving ideas behind religion--to create a framework for understanding and dealing with the world that even the most simple-minded can understand? um, no. The world ( and your place in it from a spirtual perspective) is not simple. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #22 August 2, 2005 no see the difference is simple really in Heaven... the French are the cooks the British are the cops the Germans are the engineers.. in Hell the British are the cooks the Germans are the cops and the French are the engineers..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sopheavy 0 #23 August 2, 2005 I am a Christian, I have been for almost 10 years and let me just say this, people will try to box you up under a label and put you on this fake pedestal. I became a Christian on my own accord after doing my own searching. In the past, people have tried to tell me about Jesus but I blatantly refused, considering my mom was Muslim, my dad is Buddhist, and I used to be atheist. No one can make the decision for you; you choose your own path, no one, not even your friends or family can get you to Heaven, the only way is through Jesus Christ. Unless you believe in some other religion, I don’t know how to answer that but I just know that the bible tells us that is the only way. I think there is a big difference between believing in God and knowing God. Christianity is not a religion as what many people call it, but it is more of a “relationship” with Jesus Christ, hence “Christ” ianity. One thing I know is, it doesn’t matter if people say they believe in God or not, it makes them no perfect than everyone else. No one is perfect and people will judge no matter what. That’s where grace comes in. Christians are sinners saved by the grace of God and one who accept Jesus as their Lord. Let your parents think what they think because this is your own life. The best advice is to read the bible and ask God to give you wisdom to understand His words. There is a difference between just reading the bible and understanding it. My professor is an atheist and he can quote the bible back to back. You have to open your heart to want to understand it. One more thing, if there is a Heaven, then there is a Hell. If there is good, then there is evil. There is life, there is death. Does your parents think you're going to hell because you skydive? Or they are unhappy at how you live your life. You can worship God anywhere but the purpose for church is for you to learn more and hear about God's message, the bible and also fellowship and get encouragement from other believers. Also church is important too because if you have questions, there will be people who can help explain things. I wish I had your problem, my parents wish I stop going to church. Do you know if you were to die today, would you go to Heaven?---------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- If you want to see the rainbow, you gotta put up with the storm. God bless! :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #24 August 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteIn a sense, isn't that one of the driving ideas behind religion--to create a framework for understanding and dealing with the world that even the most simple-minded can understand? um, no. The world ( and your place in it from a spirtual perspective) is not simple. Although my perspective is that of a non-spiritual person, it seems to me like it's as simple or as complex as you choose to make it, and most people choose to make it *very* simple, i.e., follow the doctrine, *must* follow the doctrine, will go to Hell if I don't follow the doctrine.... Apparently RkyMtnHigh's parents have extended their daily chant to: you *must* follow the doctrine, etc. On a tangent, I was talking with a religious friend one time and brought up the subject of religious fanatics, e.g., Jehovah's Witnesses, trying to *convert* people. I thought they should keep their BS to themselves (I still do!). He explained to me that they view themselves as desperately trying to keep people out of Hell; they are on a humanitarian mission. Whatever. Back to the topic at hand. Even for those who choose to view the world and their place in it as some intensely mystical thing, I still don't see it as being that different from the simplistic view. They are simply trying to rationalize the framework prescribed by the doctrine. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #25 August 2, 2005 isn't there a 4th condition referred to as Limbo? Heaven for good people Hell for bad people Purgatory as a repair center before going to heaven Limbo for good people that don't meet the criteria (not baptized, etc) and isn't there a 5th condition for souls that haven't lived a life yet? I don't recall all the "theo"ry ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
