I want a reliable 7-cell new main. Something wrong with me?

[DrSher 0]

Hi guys!

I am looking for a new main canopy. I have decided for a Vector rig with a Swift as reserve.

My preference is a 7-celler that doesn't have forward speed of a NASCAR (no PD, Mini-Surfair or other super-fast stuff) and doesn't give you hell if you push it a tad too much. At the same time, I am not looking for a Para-foil either, but it would be good to have something you could steer away from rivers and stuff. Throughout the years, there was way too many DZ's close to water.

Final criteria is something with quick and reliable openings that doesn't hurt too much. Prefer to pull at 2000-2500.


What is best option at this time?

There is still lots of time to learn it..

[pchapman 261]

Ahem. Your request is reasonable but the other things you wrote can attract some attention.

I believe the USPA (for their members) upped the minimum pack opening altitude from 2000' to 2500' a year or two back. (I'm personally flexible with these things but anyway.)

And I hope the Swift is at least a Swift Plus; those are old but still decent canopies at moderate loading.

[Quagmirian 40]

You're showing your age in this sport aren't you?

Have you tried a Triathlon by Aerodyne?

[FlyLikeARaven 0]

A friend of mine adores her Triathlon even though other people keep telling her it's obsolete.

I jumped a lightly loaded Storm for 150 jumps and it was a great beginner canopy. Maybe because it was lightly loaded, it definitely didn't have "the forward speed of a NASCAR." In even the slightest hint of wind, I would sink like a tank. I quickly learned on windy days to turn onto final where I wanted to land, because once I faced into the wind, I was going down right there.

Fortunately I'm on a SF2 that is more appropriately sized, and I love the forward speed! Anyway, even if you don't think you want a PD, if one comes up and you can demo it, I'd recommend it. Another friend of mine jumped the exact same canopy for 200ish jumps and he loved it too.

I'm not a lady, I'm a skydiver.

[Di0 1]

Spectre seems a safe bet.
Storm if you want a steeper trim.
Try the new Pilot7, they came out less than a year ago and people seem to like them, but that's coming from the people that are somewhat "aerodyne-related". Not to say that it's not a good canopy, absolutely, just the regular caveat with "new stuff". Demo it if you can.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[GenePetri 0]

Triathlon!

[Bluhdow 31]

This combined with your interest in BASE jumping might suggest a Squirrel Epicene. My understanding is that it has some characteristics of a BASE wing (F-111, 7 cells, positive openings).

Full disclosure: I've never flown one.

Apex BASE
#1816

[Pobrause 6]

Winx by Atair and Epicene by Squirrel should be considered, too. Why 7 cell, though?! Have you flown a PD-Navigator before?

-------------------------------------------------------

To absent friends

[Anachronist 2]

Don't get caught up with 7-cell vs. 9-cell. The relationship is somewhat arbitrary and only exists because manufacturers know that consumers expect a 7-cell to be a certain way and expect a 9-cell to be another way, so thats how they generally build them. The Velocity after all is a 7-cell canopy, though a heavily modified one.

Speed is your friend, it gives you more control but also requires more skill to appropriately handle. If you only ever fly big-dumb-happy wings, you will deprive yourself of some very important canopy piloting skills.

If you want a brisk opening and a flat glide to give you more options for landing, then you should consider the PD Pulse, Fluid Prime, or Aerodyne Pilot. All open fairly quickly and are very forgiving, all have a flat glide, all flare pretty well, and all are 9-cells. The Prime(option) and Pulse(standard) also come in low bulk materials for smaller pack volumes making them comparable to 7-cells of the same size.

If you are looking for a good WS canopy, all 3 are fantastic.

If you are looking for something BASE-esque (or are just skydiving so you can BASE jump), just free pack a BASE canopy in your rig (i.e. no D-Bag).

The Epicene fixes a problem that doesn't exist and caters to an uninformed market. I believe the Pilot 7 is in the same ball park.

Full disclosure: I've put over 100 jumps on the Pulse, Prime, and Pilot each and loved them all, but am partial to the Prime. I have also made several jumps on free packed BASE canopies in skydiving containers and it works just fine, but as a new jumper people might give you a lot of static for doing it, and to be honest is probably a little bit above your skill set for the time being. I have only put a few jumps on an Epicene and never jumped a Pilot 7.

[Amazon 7]

Quagmirian

You're showing your age in this sport aren't you?

Have you tried a Triathlon by Aerodyne?

+1
Love those... I still have my old 260 sitting in the closet.

[DrSher 0]

Thanks for all advice, I appreciate it.
First, Triathlon is my number one at the moment. I used to fly cruislite in the old days.

The 7-cell vs 9-cell is an old perception I guess, but still applicable as far as race cars go? I DID try a PD back in the days and it didn't treat me too nice. If there is anything I hate it is landings that are not feather-light. Back in Spain, I actually had Jeff Barbani take me aside and teach me how to land like a feather. He told me to look at how the pigeons landed among other things. I want something where that is easy and I can get close to disc with.

The BASE aspect is non-existent. I am soo far removed from getting there that I am strictly concerned about a skydiving device. Won't touch that stuff with a 15' pole for at least 3 years, or so.

Otherwise, I would prefer a new canopy I could get at least 300 jumps with before switching.

Finally, it is any difference with canopies for wing suits?

There is still lots of time to learn it..

[grantunderland 0]

Forget everything you know about that PD. It's a completely different game. Call up PD and talk to them about what you're looking for and they'll send you a demo for fairly cheap. They might also have a tour rep near you with free demos.

[mathrick 2]

Spectre is a very well-behaved, no stress canopy, though larger size ones open slow. Like, so much snivel I got scared the first time I jumped one (Spectre 190 was my first canopy after student Navs). Smaller Spectres reportedly become very snappy. Packing technique has a lot to say here, and if you don't do any rolling at all, they open much less snively (though still very soft). It's an "old modern 7-cell" design, so its flight characteristics are significantly different from a newer 9-cell, but it's also much more efficient than an old, F-111 7-cell.

Pilot7 is a "7-cell that thinks it's a 9-cell", and in my experience has very fast openings (too fast for me). It flies somewhere between a Sabre2 (fairly steep and fast, lots of flare) and regular Pilot (pretty flat, still very decent flare). If you load them lightly, they will definitely be slower, and if you pick one made of Ultra LPV fabric, it will pack ~2 sizes smaller than a corresponding 9-cell (so you can fit a 190 in most 150 containers with no trouble). The design is very new, and it has the performance of an easy going modern 9-cell, though the flare is still noticeably deeper in the brakes (there's plenty, it just lives deeper).

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[DrSher 0]

I don't like slow opening canopies. Make me edgy and paranoid, so reasonably up to speed is a must.

So are the 7-cellars now closer to 9-cellars than before?

There is still lots of time to learn it..

[mathrick 2]

Yes. Better tolerances with laser cutting, better materials and better CFD make it possible to create 7-cell designs that are much closer to what was traditionally the "9-cell" performance, in actually 7-cell designs (not just technically-but-not-really crossbraced canopies like Velo, which is more of a 21-cell). They're still often more reliable on opening and less prone to spin-ups thanks to their still lower aspect ratio, thus the recent breed of wingsuit-specific 7-cells on the market. Pilot7, Epicene, WinX are all examples of that.

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[jumpsalot-2 2]

Storm

Life is short ... jump often.

[wmw999 2,121]

I came back into the sport after a long layoff about 15 years ago (!). The things that made me feel most comfortable were a reasonably quick opening (I still think a 1000 foot opening is scary), a good flare, and predictability. Canopies are so different that direct comparison to the past is difficult.

I had a Pilot (9-cell) for about 100 jumps a few years ago and liked it. I pack myself, and packed for a snappy opening and was happy. I don't have it any more because the owner started jumping again

I find that I consider the canopy to be a safe way to get me to the ground after the "real" skydive, which is the freefall. That's not true for a LOT of people. For your first canopy back, I'd suggest looking at no more than slightly elliptical, and avoid anything that is proud of its soft slow opening (unless you have neck issues, of course).

If you can get to a big DZ like Perris, you can demo several canopies onsite. Also at a boogie, but the boogie season is waning for the year.
Enjoy coming back. The sky is the same, but canopy traffic is WAY different. Educate yourself. Really.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bob_Church 7]

***I came back into the sport after a long layoff about 15 years ago (!).

Some friends wanted to get back into the sport about 2008 and I took them to Taylor Air Sports. Brad was gearing Jim up with a rental and Jim wanted to know what a Triathlon was. I asked Brad to compare it for him with a Cruisair. Brad: "What's a Cruisar?"

[DrSher 0]

That's nice. I really have never been very keen on fast chutes or much with it. Neither do I care too much for weird winds and stalling at odd moments.

Yes, after touring a few DZ's around, I have the impression that canopy control is still the place to worry. I have never liked slow openings, especially not with more people in the sky.

Thank You to the Dane higher up and the description of modern 9 vs. 7-cell. I have to research some more.

The thing with trying chutes sounds great. So far I am actually strongly contemplating that Triathlon some people spoke about. Two people I know got one after they got off student gears and like it.

There is still lots of time to learn it..

[Bob_Church 7]

DrSher

Hi guys!

I am looking for a new main canopy. I have decided for a Vector rig with a Swift as reserve.

My preference is a 7-celler that doesn't have forward speed of a NASCAR (no PD, Mini-Surfair or other super-fast stuff) and doesn't give you hell if you push it a tad too much. At the same time, I am not looking for a Para-foil either, but it would be good to have something you could steer away from rivers and stuff. Throughout the years, there was way too many DZ's close to water.

Final criteria is something with quick and reliable openings that doesn't hurt too much. Prefer to pull at 2000-2500.


What is best option at this time?

It sounds like you're ok with older gear. Call Ralph and see if he has any of those Hornets left. The hornet is a nine cell zero-p canopy. My 210 reminds me for all the world of my Cruiselite, which I still consider the best canopy experience I've ever had.

[riggerrob 558]

Triathlon is the closest modern canopy to your old Cruislite. I put a few hundred jumps on a Cruislite, back during the 1980s and a handful of jumps on various sizes of Triathlons and liked them all.

Most other modern 7-cells are slightly tapered (slightly elliptical) and are aimed at weekend jumpers, canopy formation competitors or BASE jumpers.
PD Spectre and Storm are among the better modern 7-cells, but most manufacturers make competing 7-cell canopies with zero-porosity fabric and no-stretch lines. The newest canopies are made with ZP top-skins and low-bulk, slightly porous fabric similar to the F-111 fabric that your Cruislite was made of. A ZP top skin means that the canopy will fly well for thousands of jumps, while low-porosity bottom skins make it easy to compress into the bag.

A couple of 7-cells to avoid are PD Lightning and Aerdyne Diablo. Lightnings are specialized for canopy formations and often flare like bag-locks!
Hah!
Hah!
Meanwhile, Diablos have an oddly-tapered planform and have a bad habit of twisting up so badly that the only cure is cutting away! I have cutaway one Diablo.

[tikl68 6]

Triathlon. I have 1100 jumps on my 135 triathlon and have used it for freefall and I do video for CRW dogs. I can pack it to take 700 feet to open or 400 feet to open. It has forgiving characteristics and no bad sides in my opinion.

[AlanS 1]

mathrick

Spectre is a very well-behaved, no stress canopy, though larger size ones open slow. Like, so much snivel I got scared the first time I jumped one (Spectre 190 was my first canopy after student Navs). Smaller Spectres reportedly become very snappy. Packing technique has a lot to say here, and if you don't do any rolling at all, they open much less snively (though still very soft). It's an "old modern 7-cell" design, so its flight characteristics are significantly different from a newer 9-cell, but it's also much more efficient than an old, F-111 7-cell.

...

I'd like to second this post. I've had my Spectra wing loaded at about 1.25 for about 160 jumps.

It has never given me a hard opening and every time I've measured it, it has consistently been 600 feet between when I pitch and am in the saddle under a fully inflated canopy.

Up high on a hop-n-pop, I've also tried all kinds of inputs and the canopy hasn't -unlike others that I've tried- ever done anything crazy on me.

I'm not interested in swooping. I was looking for something that can land in less than ideal conditions and this so far with my modest number of jumps has done well.

If I were to down-size I'd likely get another Spectre or a Storm. I really like 7-cell canopies.

[mathrick 2]

Storms are surprisingly sporty. Toggle turns are faster than a SA2, and it has an unexpectedly large amount of flare. Enough to pop out a good deal if you're expecting a slow 7-cell that needs to be yanked hard to land.

...which is probably something for OP to consider. Almost any modern ZP design will have copious amounts of flare compared to F-111 of yore. I've never flown anything like a Cruiselite, but most canopies you can get today will quickly require multi-stage flare at anything above student wingloadings. Spectre is a notable exception.

Pulse would be another one because it's trimmed so very flat. And Pulse would be another strong recommendation for a no-stress canopy, it opens right away, on heading, will get you back from any spot, is very easy to fly without being sluggish, and lands better the less you apply any sort of technique to your flares. It's an exceedingly good "I just want to go home" canopy for people who don't want to be pilots.

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[AlanS 1]

mathrick

Storms are surprisingly sporty.

Marketing video about Storm.

https://youtu.be/pO8dlRu24Kc