The 'Oh no its cool, I'm a really good skydiver' attiude

[Floats18 0]

is really starting to piss me off.

PLEASE keep tabs on the younger jumpers at your DZ. I know a jumper (who will probably read this) who is loading a diablo 170 @ about 1.4 with 50 jumps.

Just 'cuz it feels fine when you're coming down out of a cessna onto 8 bazillion acres of plowed field doesn't mean its going to feel good when you're opening too low over town.

I hope my friend reads this and I hope that more experienced jumpers than I can back me up, 'cuz since I live more than 1000 miles away there's not much I can do besides talk.

Tonight, I'll call the DZO.

--- and give them wings so they may fly free forever

DiverDriver in Training

[wmw999 2,291]

I jump a Diablo at less than 1.4.

It goes down like a rocket when you turn. Way fun, but absolutely deadly if he misjudges at all when he's landing. That panic turn to get back into the wind? Fuck you up bigtime. The turn to avoid someone you see? Fuck you up.

You have to really watch the force with which you turn. Because a deep toggle turn will take you down a WHOLE lot faster than a shallow one. They can totally be flat turned, but, again, you have to feel it.

It's not what I'd consider to be a good choice for learning anything but survival skills, and it's not a good choice for that -- just better than accuracy, swooping, or anything else like that. If he wants to learn to swoop, there are lots of better canopies, and better wing loadings. Particularly for swooping, it seems to be much better at going down fast than at going forward fast. You can swoop it; it's just not high on most people's list, being a 7-cell and all.

Make no mistakes -- I really like my Diablo. But I have a few more than 50 jumps.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Fast 0]

Quote

is really starting to piss me off.

PLEASE keep tabs on the younger jumpers at your DZ. I know a jumper (who will probably read this) who is loading a diablo 170 @ about 1.4 with 50 jumps.

Just 'cuz it feels fine when you're coming down out of a cessna onto 8 bazillion acres of plowed field doesn't mean its going to feel good when you're opening too low over town.

I hope my friend reads this and I hope that more experienced jumpers than I can back me up, 'cuz since I live more than 1000 miles away there's not much I can do besides talk.

Tonight, I'll call the DZO.

Good on you for trying to make a difference. I have been met by quite a few people taking the attitude of a brick wall when trying to educate them. What they don't realize is when the fuck up it's going to feel like they are slaming into a brick wall. (har har) Notice I said, when, not if. Everyone fucks up at some point.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[BIGUN 1,229]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2507974;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[peregrinerose 0]

Kyle, you have a heart of gold for being so concerned about your friend. I hope you can verbally smack him silly from a distance before he gets hurt. If not, remember this guy is a grown up and can make his own decisions, no matter how insanely stupid a decision that may be. It won't be your fault when he finally realizes first hand how unfriendly the ground can be.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[stratostar 5]

Quote

The 'Oh no its cool, I'm a really good skydiver' attiude,is really starting to piss me off.

Skinny,

Like I told once before not long ago, some people have said the same of you.
Good your able to see it now first hand, so now you may see some who have/do rag on your ass, are standing on the side of the fence your now standing on.
Kind of the same as the video review we discussed.
At least you listen and try to learn, some people never get it and it is only a matter of when, not if.
No matter who try's to help.

So provide the info to them and wash your hands of it.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make um drink.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Floats18 0]

Thanks Stratostar

Yea I know I've done my fair share of things I should have done, but I appreciate that you consider me a person who is eager to learn.

I do know its hard to see more experienced jumpers do things that you want to emulate but may lack the skills and experience to do so.

I really hope no one thinks of me as the "oh no, its cool I'm good at this" type (besides the ladies )

As for my friend... I've discussed this w/ him at length multiple times and he won't heed my advice (hence the frustrated post)... At the end of the day its his decision.

I've had my 'wishing I was on the ground' moment and I just don't want my friends to have to feel that.

--- and give them wings so they may fly free forever

DiverDriver in Training

[Gato 0]

OK, I know I'm a low-timer (VERY LOW), but I'm interested in the age of the individual to whom you are referring. (Please read carefully before you decide to flame on me.)

The reason is that I read some research awhile back that indicated that the ability to fully assess risk doesn't fully develop in the human brain until around age 25 or 26. I don't remember the source of the information, but I seem to recall 60 Minutes doing a piece on it, or maybe it was 20/20.

I don't make the assumption that this is true, but it certainly helps explain a lot of stupid shit we've ALL done when we were in our early 20's. It's normal for young men to be as young lions, invincible and ever-powerful. I haven't been a jumper for long, but as a 39 year-old male, I observe plenty of REALLY DUMB phenomena in everyday life - i.e., the two guys hauling ass on GSX-R Suzukis at 80mph while riding wheelies RIGHT NEXT TO ME ON THE HIGHWAY!
(If you are doing this, you ARE a dumb-ass, and your dad should take your bike away from you.)

If you really want to get his attention, you or someone else should take him to visit an Intensive Care Unit or an ER - and let him SMELL it! (Bedpans have a way of waking you up.)

Then let him know you'll make sure to have his rig brought to his room if he ever ends up there.

Yours Bluely,

Gato the Humble Newbie

T.I.N.S.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

The reason is that I read some research awhile back that indicated that the ability to fully assess risk doesn't fully develop in the human brain until around age 25 or 26. I don't remember the source of the information, but I seem to recall 60 Minutes doing a piece on it, or maybe it was 20/20.

I call that..." not yet realizing your mortality"

I certainly survived some REALLY stupid things when I was young. ITs not totally the realm of just males.


You cant really tell someone like that... the dead man walking...of the DGIT....dead guy in training... anything...1.4 wingloading with 50 jumps I dont give a rats ass HOW good you THINK you are.... perhaps he will not kill himself.. maybe he will only double femur or slam the ground so hard he becomes a paraplegic...its up to him... but the chances are....he will not make it thru without being a statistic in the incidents forum..

[kwmontreal 0]

Hey Kyle,

Welcome to our/my world! There are many of us doing the same dance all over the country. The more of us that speak up, the safer our friends and fellow skydivers are. I guess I am relatively low time compared to many individuals here. I am still learning, but..... I have an open mind to input. I don't always like what I here, but I listen and try to apply the constructive input I receive. Thats the crutial point ....how can we open the up the person so he sees its is for him and not against him. Just keep it up in a friendly non-aggressive friendly posture. There comes a point in time where DZO's and ST&As need to find some backbone. I don't necessary agree with the "say your piece and dust off your hands" approach. I think of it like this, Some heads are like our muscles, and some individuals are a little quicker to pick up on the muscle memory. How may times do we need to repeat certain physical motions before they start to feel and become more natural??

Keep it up and welcome to the club. It was not easy but this this past season my partners and I instituted a ling loading policy at our DZ. The exact same chart that has been recommended to the USPA . I can send it to you (PM me) our it can be found some where around here. There were a few people caught by the implementation and not happy about it .... but life goes on. Incidentally. There were a few more about to be caught by the new polocy (read; about to buy new gear). We did not lose any jumpers because of this, just a few a little pissed, but they changed canopies and are having fun again.

There is much controversy about regulation and you can read many threads about, "its my right to decide and thats the bottom line". You know that I agree with them. Its my right to decide whats acceptable at the DZ. Bottom line, I'll do what I have to to protect the DZ, AND thoes who are unwilling or unable to do so for themselves.

I guess thats why I am the "DZ BITCH". and I am good at it!


Kent

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------JUMP SAFE!

[ryan_turner 0]

If he is jumping a 170 main, what size reserve does he have? Both my rigs have bigger reserves than mains, but that is definitely not the norm.

I have found Brian Germain's downsizing chart to be useful. I haven't always followed it, but it does provide a good reality check that you are pushing past the recommended limits.
http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

[Floats18 0]

Hey Kent,

Thanks for the positive response there bro. I agree tho, I don't know how anyone can 'dust off the hands' when its your friends who might get hurt. Who knows?

We've all gotta rely on each other to keep ourselves safe... you can check my pin any time you want... just don't try to pack my main

HEY RYAN TURNER.... WHERE'S MY BELLY CAM VIDEO???

I'm way too excited about that crap

--- and give them wings so they may fly free forever

DiverDriver in Training

[stratostar 5]

Quote

'dust off the hands'

When I said "provide the info, then wash your hands of it" means, how long you you going to keep riding someones ass?

Mine, it's 3 times, first time,second time, provide the info, back up info with reports and or video, ect. Third time, again provide the info and ask them to fill out their own accident report to have on file.

After that fuck um, I have better things to do with my time like work with someone who wants to learn and wants the help, and who is not in a hurry to get to an accident.

And skinny, you of all people should know what type and or who I'm speaking of.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[AFFI 0]

Quote

After that fuck um, I have better things to do with my time like work with someone who wants to learn and wants the help, and who is not in a hurry to get to an accident.

Hell Yeah!

There are always gonna be hot shots.

Like Gato, I am 39 and like them kids on the GSX’s riding wheelies going 80 in traffic, I was doing that to back in 1984/1988 on my VF-1000 but a little faster than 80 mph (pussies). Back in my testosterone soaked high performance motorcycle days on Hwy 1 at Bodega Bay I saw a hell of a lot more serious injuries and deaths then I have even heard of in skydiving. Seeing someone eat the big piece of death pie right in front of me just gave me more reason to keep them in my rear-views.
You live, you ride, you die…


Like Stratostar, tell-em, warn-em then fuck-em.

When I had around 500 jumps or so only 25 meters away I watched someone hit the ground after the canopy. The impact was so violent that I actually felt the concussion on my face as if a grenade went off. That stupid bastard was warned over and over and it might sound harsh but I am thankful that the sacrifice was made while impressionable minds watched. People got to see how being a hot shot and not listening can get you really fucked up laying in a body deep divot with blood coming out of every orifice with piss and shit in your pants while the sounds of you choking on your own blood can be heard a mile away only to wind up in ICU for a month then to die a shitty prolonged terrible death.

It might sound harsh to some, but:
If we never have the occasional sacrificial lamb slam into the ground then how in the hell is it going to keep the rest of us straight?


Edit to add:
Here is a great sacrificial lamb slam testimonial:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2527996#2527996


_

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[davelepka 4]

Quote

It might sound harsh to some, but:
If we never have the occasional sacrificial lamb slam into the ground then how in the hell is it going to keep the rest of us straight?

Are you suggesting that not enough people have died thus far to prove the theory? Do we need more examples to validate the concept that slow and steady is the way to go?

I mean really, it's no secret what kind of trouble a guy can get into being too agressive with their choices in terms of both canopy selection, and what they do with those canopies.

My question is why are these situations tolerated? For example, if one night after the bonfire goes out, a guy tries to rape one of the ladies. He's caught in the act, and stopped before he gets too far. How would this guy be treated in the future? Would he even be welcome at the DZ? Both socially, and from a DZ policy stand point?

My guiess is that after getting his ass severly beat, this guy would be persona non grata at most DZ's in the area. The jumpers wouldn't have it.

The point is that soem fuck nut can show up at the DZ, log 100 jumps, and enter into a situation where he;s a hazard to himself and possibly others, but for the most part is welcomed with open arms. He may get some advice, and some may disapprove of his choices, but everyone is still his buddy at the end of the day.

Why not ostrasize the jack-ass? Flat out say, "You're a tool, and you're playing with fire, and I don't want anything to do with it'. Don't socialize with the guy, don't jump with the guy. Fuck him.

In the end, that guy is going to ruin your good time. The DZ will have to shut down while the ambulance or helo is scraping him up. The reporters will come, and hound everyone for a sound bite. Some jumpers who witness the impact will need some time off, or quit jumping all together.

Thats the price to pay for being friendly. Is that worth it? Why not make it so hard for a guy to keep up that behavior that the offender either stops, or goes somewhere else. If everyone is on the same page, going to another DZ isn't an option. You get the same thing everywhere you go.

We know by now that the USPA is not going to do jack shit. Many DZO's are too busy or greedy to be counted on. This is a problem that we can fix as a group if we desire. Make it as uncool as rape to be a jackass with canopy selection or progression. Every DZ has a guy who knows whats up, and can make the call as to who needs to be on 'the list'.

If you're that guy, you know who you are. If you're not that guy, go find him, and get him working on a list.

Soon enough, all the new jumpers wil enter a culture where they can see that certian things are not accepted. It's a tough love type of scenario, but it's what needs to be done to reigh this thing in, and get a handle on things.

[AFFI 0]

Quote

Are you suggesting that not enough people have died thus far to prove the theory?? ***

I am not suggesting anything theoretical - it is a pure and simple fact.
There are a ton of testosterone drenched males out there ready and willing to take there chances on a canopy/motorcycle/car/rock face/bridge that has a great potential to kill them that they are not prepared for.


***Make it as uncool as rape to be a jackass with canopy selection or progression.

Making the analogy that compared a violent act such as rape against another human being to some young hotshot that wants to take on a canopy/motorcycle/car/rock face/bridge that has a great potential to kill them that they are not prepared for as being equal is beyond ludicrous.

You should be ashamed of yourself for even suggesting this…

-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[billvon 2,683]

>Are you suggesting that not enough people have died thus far to
>prove the theory? Do we need more examples to validate the
>concept that slow and steady is the way to go?

We, as experienced jumpers, don't. Many newer jumpers do.

There's a big difference hearing someone say "you're going to kill yourself" and watching someone you know with the side of their head caved in stop breathing. Tell someone something and they'll think about it intellectually; show it to them and they understand at a deeper level.

This is a phenomenon I've noticed at many DZ's. When a well-known jumper goes in, you will sometimes see people actually quit the sport over it. Why? Didn't they understand it was dangerous? Of course they did - intellectually. But watching someone die makes that real.

Now, of course, we should all be working to _prevent_ such incidents. But there seems to be a sort of regulatory mechanism working in skydiving that tempts people to take more risks until they see something like this. Sad, but I don't know how to counteract it.

>The point is that soem fuck nut can show up at the DZ, log 100
> jumps, and enter into a situation where he;s a hazard to himself
> and possibly others, but for the most part is welcomed with open
> arms. He may get some advice, and some may disapprove of his
> choices, but everyone is still his buddy at the end of the day.

In more extreme cases, he gets shit from half the DZ. He thinks they just don't understand him, so he hangs out with the "bad boys" who do understand him. He considers the rest of the DZ to be pansy-assed wimps who don't have the guts to do the things he does.

>Why not ostrasize the jack-ass? Flat out say, "You're a tool, and
>you're playing with fire, and I don't want anything to do with it'. Don't
> socialize with the guy, don't jump with the guy. Fuck him.

Tried that; see above. Doesn't work.

>In the end, that guy is going to ruin your good time. The DZ will
> have to shut down while the ambulance or helo is scraping him up.

Well, not to sound cold, but that usually doesn't take that long - and most DZ's do keep operating when stuff like that happens.

>If you're that guy, you know who you are.

No, they really, really don't. They honestly think that they're a pioneer, one of the new generation who can jump a 97 at 50 jumps. After all, us old-timers started on rounds, and when I had 200 jumps I was told I was going to kill myself on a used PD190. They figure the advice they're getting is just like that.

>Soon enough, all the new jumpers wil enter a culture where they can
> see that certian things are not accepted. It's a tough love type of
> scenario, but it's what needs to be done to reigh this thing in, and
> get a handle on things.

I don't think skydiving will ever become a culture where risk is not accepted, or where consensus will prevent anyone from doing dangerous things. We can help the ones who are able to listen (which fortunately applies to most jumpers) but some simply cannot hear advice.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Making the analogy that compared a violent act such as rape against another human being to some young hotshot that wants to take on a canopy/motorcycle/car/rock face/bridge that has a great potential to kill them that they are not prepared for as being equal is beyond ludicrous

I'm not saying that the actions themselves are equal, but I'm using the one to illustrate the attitude that jumpers need to take when a DGIT is on his way to becoming another statisitic.

Should you try to talk to, and reason with them? Sure. When that fails, you need a next step, and throwing your hands up and saying "Oh well" is not that step.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

I don't think skydiving will ever become a culture where risk is not accepted, or where consensus will prevent anyone from doing dangerous things. We can help the ones who are able to listen (which fortunately applies to most jumpers) but some simply cannot hear advice.

Two words - Low pulls.

Not cool at any DZ, and looked upon with extreme predjudice at many DZs. There was a tiem when this was the thing to do, and contests were arranged. Now it's a big time no-no.

If history is bound to repeat itself, lets repeat the concept of a bad idea becoming an uncool memory from days past, not the concpet that newbies will maim themselves under open canopies.

[AFFI 0]

Quote

I'm not saying that the actions themselves are equal, but I'm using the one to illustrate the attitude that jumpers need to take when a DGIT is on his way to becoming another statisitic.

Should you try to talk to, and reason with them? Sure. When that fails, you need a next step, and throwing your hands up and saying "Oh well" is not that step.

I would imagine that most individuals who have been raped would differ with your casual description of it.
My mother and sister certainly would...

Whatever happened to the America where a person could decide they wanted to take a risk? Had the freedom to run flat out across the Mojave on their machine or hunt down a bull Elk with a crossbow?

Certainly, educate them, warn them - but the next step in the America I served in the military for as well as did my father and his father and grandfather before him fought and died for was so a person could have certain freedoms, certain inalienable rights.

Everybody and I mean EVERYBODY knew I would die on my VF1000 back in '84 and I am told that EVERYBODY knew I would be a statistic at the DZ I started jumping at.

Out of 4 years of serious racing I was rarely coming in second and when I started hooking I was talked to; I was educated and warned but ultimately the choice was mine.

If I am landing and some hotshot takes me out after he has been warned and kills both of us, well, I am the person that signs the waiver, I am the person that decides to skydive or race my motorcycle at very high speeds or whatever the risk it is I am deciding to take.

We are jumping out of freaking airplanes and with a very low incident of death considering the risk we are all taking. So either take responsibility for the risk you are taking by jumping and flying your canopy to the ground around a bunch of others who just did the same or go do something else – just don’t take away more of my freedom to choose for myself as an American.

Enough of that has been taken from us already…

I believe you and I have the same concerns but where we differ is the freedom and opportunity to Choose for Ourselves Vs. More Regulations by governing bodies that further restrict our decision making in order to protect citizens from themselves.

Perhaps we will have to respectfully “agree to disagree”.


-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AFFI 0]

Quote

Two words - Low pulls.

Not cool at any DZ, and looked upon with extreme predjudice at many DZs. There was a tiem when this was the thing to do, and contests were arranged. Now it's a big time no-no.

If history is bound to repeat itself, lets repeat the concept of a bad idea becoming an uncool memory from days past, not the concpet that newbies will maim themselves under open canopies.

I sit out and watch and I see them ALL the time...
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[stratostar 5]

Very well put Bill, I knew someone would understand what I way trying to say.

I see good points in both Dave and AFFI's posts above. When I said "wash ones hands and be done"
That didn't mean take no action!
There are some people I just won't jump with or get on the same load with due to their repeted actions.
If the need be I will warn others to look out, I will speak with the S&TA and DZO,RD and even a ND, if need be, if all else fails, I don't jump, I sit back and wait it out and get in on the pool, or go to another DZ, most the time waiting it out works,and sometimes I even win the pool.

I'm willing to bet Floats18 will tell you I go way past the extra mile with helping a student/lowtimer find their way in learning this sport.
So (for the record) you got to be a real fuck up and a know it all, for me to "wash my hands of you" and go on about my business.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Floats18 0]

Stratostar is right-

Dude brought me into the sport anyway... He's part of the reason why I haven't pounded myself in by now.

I think everyone's got the same idea but a different way about thinking how it should get done. Basically, if you're out to kill youself you'll find a way and no amount of advice or regulation is going to stop you. Its just up to the people who care enough about you to try and help.

Life is fragile and we all know it and I wouldn't care except that the jumpers that get hurt are all part of my family. I think we need to push the limits slightly in order to learn but I don't want to see anyone else get broken.

--- and give them wings so they may fly free forever

DiverDriver in Training

[billvon 2,683]

>here was a tiem when this was the thing to do, and contests
>were arranged. Now it's a big time no-no.

I would argue that this is due to AAD's and snively mains more than a change in attitude. Low pulls are now more expensive (due to AAD firings) and inconvenient (repack required.) Also, when most people were jumping Cruislites, Clouds and Pegasuses (Pegasi?) you could be pretty assured of getting an open canopy in a few hundred feet. Today you almost have to buy a BASE or CRW canopy to get that sort of opening speed - and no one wants to jump those for freefall.

[recovercrachead 0]

Quote

>here was a tiem when this was the thing to do, and contests
>were arranged. Now it's a big time no-no.

I would argue that this is due to AAD's and snively mains more than a change in attitude. Low pulls are now more expensive (due to AAD firings) and inconvenient (repack required.) Also, when most people were jumping Cruislites, Clouds and Pegasuses (Pegasi?) you could be pretty assured of getting an open canopy in a few hundred feet. Today you almost have to buy a BASE or CRW canopy to get that sort of opening speed - and no one wants to jump those for freefall.

Try my sabre 1 its perfect for low pulls.

Track high, Pull LOW!!!