Recommended Posts
QuoteI think I'll bug out of this thread now. Arguing with religious nutjobs is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It makes you look daft and just aggravates the pig.
You need to watch your mouth with the personal attacks. It shows a lack in tact and ability on your part.
It's not a personal attack, it's an observation. You'll notice that the moderators left it intact. Now look up the word "projection"
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything here. It's a waste of time. It's just fun to throw rocks at slow moving targets from time to time, and there's certainly some lumbering around this thread.
Since it's not a personal attack, I find that people who irately attack anyone who professes to hold religious beliefs are self centered, insecure, jerks. They immediately start refuting religion as a myth while believing every hypothesis science (the religion of the elite class) provides without question.
BTW, this is just an observation, not a personal attack.
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin
QuoteUntil the government provides free birth control to absolutely every person who wants it (hell, it's not even covered under some insurance plans) and more research into male birth control, they have no business in determining what happens if a woman gets pregnant. If the government can't provide proper precautions, they have no right to decide what happens beyond.
Okay, that is where I will have to disagree. Not to the part about abortion being legal -- because I think it should.
But your statement implies that since the government will not give free birth control, people can go around having unprotected sex, conceive a fetus, and then terminate simply because the government did not help prevent the pregnancy. That takes all the responsibility away from the mother..even though she was the one who decided to have sex without protection. If you don't want to have a child and you can't get some type of protection (see next paragraph), NO SEX FOR YOU.
I am not one for abortions for the sake of birth control. ANd besides, that argument is pretty thin. You can go to any planned parenthood or other similar facility and get all the free condoms your hearts desire.
Now, if a couple took all precautions and were careful and still conceived a child, well, thne I would say different.
Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.
QuoteQuoteI think I'll bug out of this thread now. Arguing with religious nutjobs is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It makes you look daft and just aggravates the pig.
You need to watch your mouth with the personal attacks. It shows a lack in tact and ability on your part.
It's not a personal attack, it's an observation. You'll notice that the moderators left it intact. Now look up the word "projection"
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything here. It's a waste of time. It's just fun to throw rocks at slow moving targets from time to time, and there's certainly some lumbering around this thread.
Since it's not a personal attack, I find that people who irately attack anyone who professes to hold religious beliefs are self centered, insecure, jerks. They immediately start refuting religion as a myth while believing every hypothesis science (the religion of the elite class) provides without question.
BTW, this is just an observation, not a personal attack.
This is not said about all people who hold beliefs. I hold beliefs of god and I have yet to be called self-centered or insecure.
It is about people who use only the bible or whatever relgious text to explain EVERYTHING in the world. How reasonable can someone like that be?
Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.
Lindsey 0
Most people of any race or religion alter their views when they learn new facts. Fundamentalists of most flavors generally don't. They think all the facts that matter are in their little book and everyone who does not believe is the enemy, to be converted. Thats the part I find scary.
Me too.... Thanks for summing that up so nicely....
linz
Me too.... Thanks for summing that up so nicely....
linz
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
QuoteYou can go to any planned parenthood or other similar facility and get all the free condoms your hearts desire.
No, you can't. They cost money at Planned Parenthood. Also, Planned Parenthood takes donations. So, it's not so much the government doing that.
Quote
But your statement implies that since the government will not give free birth control, people can go around having unprotected sex, conceive a fetus, and then terminate simply because the government did not help prevent the pregnancy.
No, it implies that since it is up to the individual to take care of their own reproductive system, then it should be completely up to them. If the government won't help at one stage, it should not interfere at any other.
There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning
kallend 1,623
QuoteQuoteYou can go to any planned parenthood or other similar facility and get all the free condoms your hearts desire.
No, you can't. They cost money at Planned Parenthood. Also, Planned Parenthood takes donations. So, it's not so much the government doing that.Quote
But your statement implies that since the government will not give free birth control, people can go around having unprotected sex, conceive a fetus, and then terminate simply because the government did not help prevent the pregnancy.
No, it implies that since it is up to the individual to take care of their own reproductive system, then it should be completely up to them. If the government won't help at one stage, it should not interfere at any other.
What goes on inside a woman's body is no business of anyone but the woman. Definitely not the Pope's or George Bush's business.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
lurch 0
They immediately start refuting religion as a myth while believing every hypothesis science (the religion of the elite class) provides without question.
Whoa. (thump thump) Is this microphone on? Science is pretty believable when you see it light a light bulb in your face. Its real whether you want to believe it or not. Which deity to I have to abject myself to to be able to pray a lightbulb on? When you manage that, you'll have science's credibility.
Reality check, hello! Did you just claim science to be just another religion? The "religion of the elite class"?Pardon me while I laugh till my spleen pops like an egg in a microwave. I didn't know it was possible to be that disconnected from reality without neural trauma sufficient to require antipsychotic meds.
Religions are about providing comfort to the dying, and the living. Religions are about trying to provide answers for the things everyone damn well knows don't have answers. They're about trying to give a structure to the chaos we don't understand thats just outside perceivable reality. And of course theyre about manipulating and controlling each other, but thats realpolitik, not the official rep, kind of like an off-label use of the god pill. Religions promise eternal life salvation and an answer to every question. They deliver on none of these. Which is why you have to have faith for it to be real to you....because it isn't real to anyone else.
Science doesn't need faith, it is a way of thinking to determine the objectively REAL. So science promises answers, and it promises more questions, and it delivers on both. It promises better understanding of what makes the universe tick, and ever-better technology as a result. And boy does it deliver. If science is a religion this must be one hell of a faith based computer, huh? Religion says pray to get results. I tried that as a child. (checks watch) Nope. still hasn't delivered, No answers, no eternal life.
Science says ask questions make switches and then flip them to manipulate cosmic forces channel those electrons and get something DONE. And you know every time I flip a functioning switch, it does something.
Science is about things we CAn and DO know. To equate it with religion is to claim belief is equal to fact. Religion says pray for salvation. Science says ask the right questions and save yourself.
Nuff said.
Whoa. (thump thump) Is this microphone on? Science is pretty believable when you see it light a light bulb in your face. Its real whether you want to believe it or not. Which deity to I have to abject myself to to be able to pray a lightbulb on? When you manage that, you'll have science's credibility.
Reality check, hello! Did you just claim science to be just another religion? The "religion of the elite class"?Pardon me while I laugh till my spleen pops like an egg in a microwave. I didn't know it was possible to be that disconnected from reality without neural trauma sufficient to require antipsychotic meds.
Religions are about providing comfort to the dying, and the living. Religions are about trying to provide answers for the things everyone damn well knows don't have answers. They're about trying to give a structure to the chaos we don't understand thats just outside perceivable reality. And of course theyre about manipulating and controlling each other, but thats realpolitik, not the official rep, kind of like an off-label use of the god pill. Religions promise eternal life salvation and an answer to every question. They deliver on none of these. Which is why you have to have faith for it to be real to you....because it isn't real to anyone else.
Science doesn't need faith, it is a way of thinking to determine the objectively REAL. So science promises answers, and it promises more questions, and it delivers on both. It promises better understanding of what makes the universe tick, and ever-better technology as a result. And boy does it deliver. If science is a religion this must be one hell of a faith based computer, huh? Religion says pray to get results. I tried that as a child. (checks watch) Nope. still hasn't delivered, No answers, no eternal life.
Science says ask questions make switches and then flip them to manipulate cosmic forces channel those electrons and get something DONE. And you know every time I flip a functioning switch, it does something.
Science is about things we CAn and DO know. To equate it with religion is to claim belief is equal to fact. Religion says pray for salvation. Science says ask the right questions and save yourself.
Nuff said.
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.
Lindsey 0
If the government won't help at one stage, it should not interfere at any other.
I sure don't think women's reproductive health should be subject to any government scrutiny....at ALL. BUT I don't think it's because they don't provide the MEANS for women to avoid pregnancy. I just think that it's MY mind and MY body, and no legislators have any say about the choices I make concerning these....
There are a lot of things governnment doesn't help with. But because the government doesn't provide a person money, for instance, should there be no laws about theft? If the government, today, made birth control 100% available to everybody in our country, my stance on abortion would not change.
US out of my uterus~
linz
I sure don't think women's reproductive health should be subject to any government scrutiny....at ALL. BUT I don't think it's because they don't provide the MEANS for women to avoid pregnancy. I just think that it's MY mind and MY body, and no legislators have any say about the choices I make concerning these....
There are a lot of things governnment doesn't help with. But because the government doesn't provide a person money, for instance, should there be no laws about theft? If the government, today, made birth control 100% available to everybody in our country, my stance on abortion would not change.
US out of my uterus~
linz
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
QuoteIf the government won't help at one stage, it should not interfere at any other.
I sure don't think women's reproductive health should be subject to any government scrutiny....at ALL. BUT I don't think it's because they don't provide the MEANS for women to avoid pregnancy. I just think that it's MY mind and MY body, and no legislators have any say about the choices I make concerning these....
There are a lot of things governnment doesn't help with. But because the government doesn't provide a person money, for instance, should there be no laws about theft? If the government, today, made birth control 100% available to everybody in our country, my stance on abortion would not change.
US out of my uterus~
linz
I like this response better. Otherwise, it sounds like she is saying if the government provide protection, abortions should then be made illegal.
Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.
Look what you got chuteless!!! a more heated response that if i had started a thread about Irak illegal invasion... I thought that was not possible.
Well, i have some news for you. Abortions have always existed and always will. Now you have all this fancy clinics where abortions can be made at minimal risk for the woman, before they were performed by an old woman with a hanger and no studies. See, even religious people get abortions when it is not convenient to have the baby.
To be honest i am not very fond of abortion, but in no way i think i should tell women what to do with their body, specially if i didn´t have anything to do with their pregnancy.
Now, why should we worry about abortion when we have all this religious priests abusing little kids. To me, that is a bigger problem than letting woman decide.
Well, i have some news for you. Abortions have always existed and always will. Now you have all this fancy clinics where abortions can be made at minimal risk for the woman, before they were performed by an old woman with a hanger and no studies. See, even religious people get abortions when it is not convenient to have the baby.
To be honest i am not very fond of abortion, but in no way i think i should tell women what to do with their body, specially if i didn´t have anything to do with their pregnancy.
Now, why should we worry about abortion when we have all this religious priests abusing little kids. To me, that is a bigger problem than letting woman decide.
gjhdiver 0
Quote
Since it's not a personal attack, I find that people who irately attack anyone who professes to hold religious beliefs are self centered, insecure, jerks. They immediately start refuting religion as a myth while believing every hypothesis science (the religion of the elite class) provides without question.
BTW, this is just an observation, not a personal attack.
Fair enough. Just to clarify my position. I don't have much of an opinion of religious faith as long as it's held privately and not used to dictate public policy. That way, you can believe in whatever nonsense you like.
My problem is with religious fundamentalism, of all kinds and of all faiths. When some person or body of people attempt to entact their favorite superstitions into law, that's when I kick back.
QuoteIf the government won't help at one stage, it should not interfere at any other.
I agree, but I think everyone missed my point.
The government doesn't do much to help prevent unwanted pregnancies, hence I don't see why they have any right in deciding what happens to those unwanted pregnancies.
QuoteIf the government, today, made birth control 100% available to everybody in our country, my stance on abortion would not change.
Same here.
There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning
Tink1717 2
Abortion: On demand with NO APOLOGIES, PERIOD!!!!
Why don't you care about children that are already here instead of shedding crocodile tears about those who are not?
Why don't you care about children that are already here instead of shedding crocodile tears about those who are not?
Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717
Muenkel 0
QuoteDefinitely not the Pope's or George Bush's business.
The Pope speaks for the Catholic Church. He is not a politician, but the head of a specific religion.
If you are not a practising Catholic, then what the Pope says is none of your business.
As for President Bush, he has just as much right to voice his opinion on an issue as any other politician.
Chris
_________________________________________
Chris
kallend 1,623
QuoteQuoteDefinitely not the Pope's or George Bush's business.
The Pope speaks for the Catholic Church. He is not a politician, but the head of a specific religion.
If you are not a practising Catholic, then what the Pope says is none of your business.
As for President Bush, he has just as much right to voice his opinion on an issue as any other politician.
Chris
If the Roman church attempts to influence politicians over policy matters, then what the Pope of Rome says is everyone's business. And he has no business sticking his nose into women's private parts.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteScience is pretty believable when you see it light a light bulb in your face.
That is not a hypothesis wild man.
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin
Muenkel 0
QuoteDefinitely not the Pope's or George Bush's business.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Pope speaks for the Catholic Church. He is not a politician, but the head of a specific religion.
If you are not a practising Catholic, then what the Pope says is none of your business.
As for President Bush, he has just as much right to voice his opinion on an issue as any other politician.
Chris
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the Roman church attempts to influence politicians over policy matters, then what the Pope of Rome says is everyone's business. And he has no business sticking his nose into women's private parts.
First, it is called the Roman Catholic Church.
Second, if a politician decides to meet with the Pontiff and discuss certain matters, he has every right to tell them what he believes to be the truth...as any other religious leader. The politician can take what the Pope says as they wish.
The Pope is obligated to teach the Catholic faith and in our faith, the rights of the unborn are just as important as the rights of the woman.
Each individual has the right to agree or disagree. That is what we call 'free will'.
Chris
_________________________________________
Chris
QuoteSecond, if a politician decides to meet with the Pontiff and discuss certain matters, he has every right to tell them what he believes to be the truth...as any other religious leader. The politician can take what the Pope says as they wish.
As long as those matters are private, any politician is free to take the opportunity to discuss personally with the pope or Jesus God himself. But if from the outcome of that conversation there is going to be a draft for a new law, the whole situation is just plain wrong unless you live in a teocracy.
QuoteThe Pope is obligated to teach the Catholic faith and in our faith, the rights of the unborn are just as important as the rights of the woman.
I bet that if there was a law such as that if the woman dies in the delivery, the father shares her fate (AKA being put to sleep), we would see more tolerance from catholic men.
QuoteEach individual has the right to agree or disagree. That is what we call 'free will'.
Yes, but your rights finish when someone else´s rights start, and i think it is a cheap shot to try to pass laws so people will be obligated to do what you think is right.
Chris
Muenkel 0
I respectfully disagree with your entire post.
Chris
_________________________________________
Chris
Chris
_________________________________________
Chris
For once I agree 100% with Botellines. Never thought I'd say that...
QuoteYes, but your rights finish when someone else´s rights start, and i think it is a cheap shot to try to pass laws so people will be obligated to do what you think is right.
Not everyone agrees they should pay taxes but you are required by law to do that. Not everyone agrees that you should have to wear clothes in public but there are laws requiring you to do that. Most laws are trying to obligate people to do what other people think is right. Your argument doesn't make any sense. Very few laws (most likely none) have 100% support from the public.
Rewording what you tried to say: Your rights stop when they start infringing on another person's rights or causes undue harm to society as a whole. The debate in abortion is whether an unborn child has rights or is it just a piece of meat for the mother to do with as she likes. If the child has no rights then it is just a matter of personal freedom for the mother. If the child has rights then it is a matter of whether the mother has the right to end the life of her child. Until women can start having babies without the input (no pun intended) of a man this is the business of both males and females. Men have an emotional and physical attachment to their children.
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin
kallend 1,623
Quote
If the Roman church attempts to influence politicians over policy matters, then what the Pope of Rome says is everyone's business. And he has no business sticking his nose into women's private parts.
First, it is called the Roman Catholic Church.
Just about every Christian church calls itself "Catholic". Ask an Episcopalian or Lutheran. The Roman church just refuses to acknowledge the others.
Quote
Second, if a politician decides to meet with the Pontiff and discuss certain matters, he has every right to tell them what he believes to be the truth...as any other religious leader. The politician can take what the Pope says as they wish.
When the Pope of Rome and his underlings seek out politicians and lobby them over policy, that becomes everyone's business.
I reject completely the notion that the bodies of women (or anyone else for that matter) should be controlled by the wishes of the Pope or any other religious despot/shaman/witch doctor. If women choose to subject their bodies to religious control, that's their privilege.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites