Democracy in Iraq and other "countries Bush wants to spread freedom to"

[rhino 0]

Personally,

I think democracy is hard pressed to succeed in ANY country from which it wasn't initiated and fought for from within that society itself.

Look at the US. Another country didn't step in and say "Let's make the US a democracy?". A revolution happened by the people for the people from within.

Iraq MIGHT work but I doubt it will UNLESS the Iraqi people FIGHT for democracy themselves. They must have a revolution from within and an overwhelming agreement from within that democracy is what they want.

We can't just WHAMMO and expect other countries that have been doing things the same way, that have traditions going back thousands of years to STOP DROP AND ROLL for democracy. They will only do that if it was their idea and if THEY want it.

Bush's spreading freedom is a nice thought. It is a egocentric political statement obviously made with the same lack of foresight as the Iraq war. We CANNOT force our way of life on other nations. It has to be their decision and their revolution... If Bush wanted to be a great president he would have to read "How to Win Friends and Influence People" a MILLION times. Have his administration read and adopt it. Have congress read and adopt it and live by it himself.

My couple of cents...

Rhino

[DexterBase 0]

I think it has far more to do with our national policy and our vision for the world, and much less to do with President Bush.

If you were to take President Bush (I call him President Bush not "Bush" or "shrub" because he's our president and I think he deserves to be addressed as such.) out of office today, then there would be another person who would step in and do the same things.

The President of the United States makes very few decisions without the consultation and advice of his advisors. A new president, after hearing the intelligence briefs and the advice of the chiefs of staff and other countless opinions he must listen to, will likely take the same actions.

That is, unless you elect a selfish, gutless, liberal president who wants to isolate the US from the rest of the world. This world isn't ideal and I really get the feeling that a lot of people who post here are holding the President to impossible standards that would only work in an ideal and perfect world.


Edit: Typo

[ColdDuck 0]

The Iraqi people may have no idea what it is like to see a ballot with more than one name on it. The fact is that when people are given choices in elections, they tend to choose the least constraining party, and candidates. If you look at the fine line governments throughout the Middle East must walk in order to maintain thier control over citizens it proves in my opinion that if given a choice, these people would opt for more moderate leaders.

I don't see why spreading democracy is such a bad thing. We can accomplish this by simply assuring that countries hold free and fair elections, Ukraine for example. Our efforts under the Belarus Democracy Act for example provides support for indigenous groups within Belarus that support democratic principles.

To say whether President Bush is a great president or not at this point is meaningless. The greatness of any president is not realized until long after their presidencies are over. The same will be true for this President.

"Insurance should called In case shit happens, if shit don't happen shouldn't I get my money back?"

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

Quote

I think democracy is hard pressed to succeed in ANY country from which it wasn't initiated and fought for from within that society itself.

Yup, Democracy failed so miserably in Japan after WWII. I think it totally flopped in West Germany too.

There's a big difference between cutting and running and pulling the troops quickly to appease all the impatient people at home... and staying, footing the bill, and getting a good democracy established firmly before you leave.

Keep watching Afghanistan. 15 years from now, as long as the next US President doesn't cut and run.... It might actually be a nice place to live. Iraq will be just a few years behind.

[crozby 0]

Quote

Yup, Democracy failed so miserably in Japan after WWII. I think it totally flopped in West Germany too.

You cannot compare Germany or Japan to Iraq. For starters, both Germany & Japan had surrendered following years of conflict, Iraq has not.

I agree with Rhino, we cannot inflict democracy on nations. They have to want it and to invest time and effort in making it happen.

[skydyvr 0]

Quote

They have to want it and to invest time and effort in making it happen.

I know liberals love to focus on the negative in Iraq, but the fact is a very significant percentage of the Iraqis do want democracy. Hard numbers will be available in a few days.

. . =(_8^(1)

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

Quote

You cannot compare Germany or Japan to Iraq. For starters, both Germany & Japan had surrendered following years of conflict, Iraq has not.

I agree with Rhino, we cannot inflict democracy on nations. They have to want it and to invest time and effort in making it happen.

Years of conflict? Gulf War 1, the bombings inbetween, Gulf War 2.. Of Course Saddam didn't surrender... he ran away.

Of course you cannot compare success stories. That would spoil the drama. Japan especially because they supported their government and leader (the divine Emperor Hirohito) far more than Iraqi's supported Saddam. Their constitution was handed to them by the occupying power (US), and their first election was held within 7 months of invasion. Occupation lasted from 1945-1952. 7 Years!

The Iraqi's get to make their own constitution and they get more time to vote. The general population is more educated. Its been done before, It will be done again.

We have a lot of men and women in Iraq to get them to the point where Japan was after WWII. Support them and give the Iraqi's the benefit of the doubt, they deserve it.

--Jason

[rhino 0]

Quote

We have a lot of men and women in Iraq to get them to the point where Japan was after WWII. Support them and give the Iraqi's the benefit of the doubt, they deserve it.

It isn't a matter of supporting them. We all do and no one is questioning that. It is a matter of what methodology in instituting democracy works and doesn't work. The BUSH doctrine goes against what works...

[jkm2500 0]

I am just wondering what, in your opinion, works? (to spread democracy) I am curious to know what works. We have never been put in a situation like we have found ourselves....therfore we dont know what works.

And a lot of Japanese never surrendered...the island of Saipan...IIRC, and I probably don't. Its been awhile.

The majority of people in Iraq want freedom.

The primary purpose of the Armed Forces is to prepare for and to prevail in combat should the need arise.

[AdD 1]

Quote

think democracy is hard pressed to succeed in ANY country from which it wasn't initiated and fought for from within that society itself.

Wow, I finally agree with you 100% on something.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[rhino 0]

Quote

I am just wondering what, in your opinion, works?

Please re-read my initial post.

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

Quote

It is a matter of what methodology in instituting democracy works and doesn't work. The BUSH doctrine goes against what works...

Maybe, but the Bush doctrine is not in play here. At the request of the US, the UN set up the plan and the process that is taking place for the move to Democracy. And quite honestly, I think the plan is an excellent one. The Iraqis want it to work, and they will make it work.

[rhino 0]

Quote

And quite honestly, I think the plan is an excellent one. The Iraqis want it to work, and they will make it work.

I hope you are right...

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Quote

I think democracy is hard pressed to succeed in ANY country from which it wasn't initiated and fought for from within that society itself.

Yup, Democracy failed so miserably in Japan after WWII. I think it totally flopped in West Germany too.

There's a big difference between cutting and running and pulling the troops quickly to appease all the impatient people at home... and staying, footing the bill, and getting a good democracy established firmly before you leave.

Keep watching Afghanistan. 15 years from now, as long as the next US President doesn't cut and run.... It might actually be a nice place to live. Iraq will be just a few years behind.

Don't foget how democracy is just flopping all over the place in eastern Europe in the former Soviet Bloc nations too.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[rhino 0]

Quote

Don't foget how democracy is just flopping all over the place in eastern Europe in the former Soviet Bloc nations too.

Yep... It is starting BY the people FOR the people. From the inside out... Not the outside in...

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Quote

Don't foget how democracy is just flopping all over the place in eastern Europe in the former Soviet Bloc nations too.

Yep... It is starting BY the people FOR the people. From the inside out... Not the outside in...

Hardly from the inside out. We cut the chains when the wall fell and the Cold War ended. The people wanted the freedom. Romania, is one very vivid example of how ready they were....couldn't have happened without the outside events of the world taking place.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

Yup, Democracy failed so miserably in Japan after WWII. I think it totally flopped in West Germany too.

Exactly my thought.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[rhino 0]

Quote

the wall fell

I know... I was in Berlin THE DAY the wall fell.. I brought home about 30lbs of the wall myself... Amazing experience..

Rhino

[Gawain 0]

From another perspective on your point though, I would like to explain one of my own observations:

During the Cold War, it was inevitable that the west would be victorious in the manner that we were because the people of the "east" knew what democracy and freedom were about and they wanted it, badly. They knew what it was because they, at one time, had freedom before it was squeezed out by the USSR and communism.

It is easy to instill tides of change when you can attract that kind of "following". The middle east however is far more challenging. They've been a civilization in decline for so long, looking downhill in their own little "world" for so many centuries that they do not remember, or know of the prominence their culture once had in the world. They do not know, or can grasp even an understanding of what a free society can do for them, their neighbors, their families, their societies in order to generate even an interest. This is not the case 100%, but it does appear that way to me sometimes.

Yeah, it can be chaotic, but it's better than being oppressed and I wonder sometimes if these people truly understand out amazing it will be for them if a ball can start rolling now, and slowly spread through the region.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[mikkey 0]

I am not sure that you can directly compare the situation in Eastern Europe with Iraq. There are great cultural differences.
No doubt in my mind that the majority of people in Iraq wanted to get rid of SH - but I am not so sure that they want a western style democracy. Their values and believe system are quite different from western type countries.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

Quote

I am not so sure that they want a western style democracy. Their values and believe system are quite different from western type countries.

And thats exactly why this election is such a good thing, they are electing the people that will write their own constitution the way they want it.... and even if the Sunis are shut out of the election because of violence and protest, Statements have been made that they will still have a major roll in the constitution--so that all the groups have their say. Trust the people involved in this(UN, Iraqis, and US & Alies). They actually know what they are doing.

[rhino 0]

The troops are starting to get tips by the boatload on the insurgents from the Iraqi people. This is a really good sign. The people are choosing sides and the insurgents are starting to get ratted on... Good for the Iraqi people!!

[wmw999 2,120]

Quote

The troops are starting to get tips by the boatload on the insurgents from the Iraqi people

That would be good news indeed.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[prepheckt 0]

Quote

They've been a civilization in decline for so long, looking downhill in their own little "world" for so many centuries that they do not remember, or know of the prominence their culture once had in the world.

(I'm paraphrasing from a book I have at home). This also applies to a thread that jumper03 wrote awhile back, just never got around to answering it.

Actually, Muslims are quite well aware of the former prominence of Islamic culture. In fact, they dream of regaining that status and prosperity. One of many questions that has been asked by Muslims and non-Muslims alike is what went wrong? They don't understand how Islam, once the center of world learning and culture, could have stagnated so and been surpassed by others. The Islamic world has been trying to play catch-up (rather unsuccessfully) for the better part of a thousand years. I think it is a common belief that if they return Islam to its roots, as it was during the radishun (or rightly guided caliphs), then prosperity will reign again. This could be one reason that Islamic extremists essentially wish to return the Arab/Islamic world to the 12th century.

If I remember correctly, Islam is not only a religious faith, but a way of life that is incorporated into secular life. Because of this, it is very difficult to Arabs to see how a "separation between church and state" can exist, because to Muslims, you cannot have one without the other.

Also, Muslims believe that the Quran is true and is perfect. Any "innovation" to the Islamic orthodoxy (called bid'a) is dangerous because it can lead Muslims from the true path. So you can see why ideas that would promulgate change of any kind (social or technological) would be highly resisted. So introducing the concept of democracy with it's freedoms for the individual, over Islam which is considered "the will of God" is seen as bid'a, and an attack on Muslim culture. Those who seek to change Islam are considered apostates because God's knowlege is pure and to change anything is an affront to God. This would explain why Osama bin Laden other others who share his views hate the US.

I would say that Muslims are searching for the soul of Islam. The question remains can Islam retain its core beliefs and tenets yet at the same time allow change and innovation.

"Dancing Argentine Tango is like doing calculus with your feet."
-9 toes

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

The only flaw with your post is... Iraq is different from the rest of the Muslim world. Under Saddam, the government was secular and women had rights. Iraq was and still is the most progressive and educated country in the region.

That is one more reason why democracy will work very well for them.