Gitmo abuse

[PhillyKev 0]

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Been discussed dozens of times already. Maybe you can resume one of those threads. Nothing new to debate. Seems like yet another thread to spark controversy.

So why bother commenting?

[freeryde13 0]

there are of course no rules for war and the smartest way to fight a war is to do whatever it takes to win. including lieing to win the public relations war, so your right about that. what is not to smart is unprovoked war. it's just like the bully at school, eventually someone comes along and beats him down and everyone is happy that they did. we are not fighting the good fight because there is no reason to fight. we are making the enemy fight us by our actions. if i got locked up and torchered your damn right i would go out and join whoever was fighting who did that to me. our intellegence is obviosly not good enough to decide who is deserving of tourcher type treatment. and you being in the military mr. fish, are the recipient of the anger stirred up by the prisoner abuse you support. ain't that a bitch. when the guards and solders of our country abuse people it makes them look like pussies and embarrasses our country. you gotta keep your honor, we disrespect ourself when we abuse these people.

as far as your comparing abuse in other prisons to the army abuse in prisons. the abuse in prisons here and in mexico is caused by the inmates to other inmates, kind of a survival of the fittest if you will. the abuse in the military prisons is done by the jailers and is shows no balls at all, it's just embarrassing. real low class shit. and why are you so woried about blacks and latinos raping white guys in prison....thats out of left field bro. did something happen to you? let it out man, we're here to help.

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people see me as a challenge to their balance

[Gravitymaster 0]

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as far as your comparing abuse in other prisons to the army abuse in prisons. the abuse in prisons here and in mexico is caused by the inmates to other inmates, kind of a survival of the fittest if you will.

Bullshit. Apparently you have no idea the extent of prison abuses worldwide. Much of it is either done directly by the guards and/or warden of instigated by them as a form of psychological manipulation and control.

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the abuse in the military prisons is done by the jailers and is shows no balls at all, it's just embarrassing. real low class shit.

Agreed.

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and why are you so woried about blacks and latinos raping white guys in prison....thats out of left field bro.

Why are you concerned about abuses of terrorists?

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did something happen to you? let it out man, we're here to help.

Never been in prison, but your little snipe is well noted and is taken into consideration when evaluating the value of your post.

[Botellines 0]

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Perhaps you need to read up about your own govt's abuses before you start bashing ours.

Perhaps not. I am very well aware of those acts committed by my government. Funny thing is that you forgot to mention the biggest one. read up about GAL, a government funded group who kidnappeed and tortured a terrorist, and go figure, they also got the wrong guy.
So it is okay because if Spain has done it before, you can do it too and still hold the high moral ground. Yeah, right.
By the way, those responsible for the GAL, are in jail at the moment, except the founder Mr X. (That Mr X is Felipe Gonzalez an ex-president, presidents have the hability to get away with things other people don´t.)

[Ron 7]

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although I don't remember airing my sentiments about which pres you guys should have gone for. I wouldn't exactly have put myself "pro" either guy.

Well sorry then.

But I find it funny that many folks wanted JK, but didn't know anything about him.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tunaplanet 0]

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But I find it funny that many folks wanted JK, but didn't know anything about him.

We knew everything about him. We knew everything he stood for and against. The problem was everything he stood for was also everything he stood against. His stance on every issue depended on what voters he was speaking to. They didn't forever label him, "Flip-Flop" for nothing.

Forty-two

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Perhaps you need to read up about your own govt's abuses before you start bashing ours.

Perhaps not. I am very well aware of those acts committed by my government. Funny thing is that you forgot to mention the biggest one. read up about GAL, a government funded group who kidnappeed and tortured a terrorist, and go figure, they also got the wrong guy.
So it is okay because if Spain has done it before, you can do it too and still hold the high moral ground. Yeah, right.
By the way, those responsible for the GAL, are in jail at the moment, except the founder Mr X. (That Mr X is Felipe Gonzalez an ex-president, presidents have the hability to get away with things other people don´t.)

Thanks, I had forgotten about GAL.

Why doesn't Spain just give ETA their own state? Israel has at least offered it to the Palestinians and they continue to recieve criticism.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Wouldn't that be bowing to terrorism? Would the US do what terrorists asked when faced with a bombing and shooting campaign?

Besides - they have good as have - the Basque region is semi-autonomous. It's not a bad compromise.

[rehmwa 2]

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They didn't forever label him, "Flip-Flop" for nothing.

He did not flip flop - he consistently took the position of whichever group he was in front of. That's not "flip flopping", it's "pandering".


edit: it's also ancient history, shall we move on?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Wouldn't that be bowing to terrorism? Would the US do what terrorists asked when faced with a bombing and shooting campaign?

Of course it would be. I'm not suggesting Spain should. My point is why Israel is criticized when they have at least offered the Palestinians their own State and look at what it's gotten them.

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Besides - they have good as have - the Basque region is semi-autonomous. It's not a bad compromise.

Not according to the ETA, apparently.

[mr2mk1g 10]

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Not according to the ETA, apparently.

true - you can't please everyone apparently.

[Botellines 0]

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Thanks, I had forgotten about GAL.

That is probably because you didn´t know about it to begin with.

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Why doesn't Spain just give ETA their own state? Israel has at least offered it to the Palestinians and they continue to recieve criticism.

Because as mr2mk1g said that region is already semi-autonomous (they control their own taxes, own government, etc,) To give them their own state (outside of spain) would be extremely unfair for those basques that do not want it, which are most of them given the consequences of that.
As a matter of fact, they do not want the independence from spain, they want the right to choose wether they want to be independent or not. They very well know that they couldn´t afford it, however, if Spain concedes that to Basque country it would have to do it for Cataluña as well, and due to tourism, they could afford it.
Anyway, if florida sais that they don´t want to be part of the U.S anymore would you just let them make theor own country?

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Thanks, I had forgotten about GAL.

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That is probably because you didn´t know about it to begin with.

Actually, I was aware of who they are. I did some research after the train bombings in Spain and came across it then.

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Why doesn't Spain just give ETA their own state? Israel has at least offered it to the Palestinians and they continue to recieve criticism.

Because as mr2mk1g said that region is already semi-autonomous (they control their own taxes, own government, etc,) To give them their own state (outside of spain) would be extremely unfair for those basques that do not want it, which are most of them given the consequences of that.
As a matter of fact, they do not want the independence from spain, they want the right to choose wether they want to be independent or not. They very well know that they couldn´t afford it, however, if Spain concedes that to Basque country it would have to do it for Cataluña as well, and due to tourism, they could afford it.
Anyway, if florida sais that they don´t want to be part of the U.S anymore would you just let them make theor own country?

I was only aware that they were asking for their own State, not the option to secede from Spain. Why not give then their own State as many have demanded Israel do, with the understanding that secession will not be an option?

[freeryde13 0]

i cn't do that quote and answer thing you do ....but. the fact that other countries prison systems abuse prisoners doesn't mean we should be doing it since they do. we're americans and should worry about americans.

how do you know these people are terorists in the jails. because some one else said so. if they are terorists they shold be tried and convicted in a court of law, if not then let go.

and i can't help it ...i'm not perfect, i admit it already ahaahahahaha god be patient with me pleeeeeease . when i see a rediculous post i post one back to put it in perspective..... but still tell me what the fuck does black and latinos raping white guys in us prisons have to do with the us abusing prisoners of war. you've gotta admit it's a strech bro. good try but it's just a bit to much of a stretch.

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people see me as a challenge to their balance

[Gravitymaster 0]

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i cn't do that quote and answer thing you do ....but. the fact that other countries prison systems abuse prisoners doesn't mean we should be doing it since they do. we're americans and should worry about americans.

how do you know these people are terorists in the jails. because some one else said so. if they are terorists they shold be tried and convicted in a court of law, if not then let go.

and i can't help it ...i'm not perfect, i admit it already ahaahahahaha god be patient with me pleeeeeease . when i see a rediculous post i post one back to put it in perspective..... but still tell me what the fuck does black and latinos raping white guys in us prisons have to do with the us abusing prisoners of war. you've gotta admit it's a strech bro. good try but it's just a bit to much of a stretch.

I explained myself several time already, so if you still don't get it, sorry.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Are you sure you want to be comparing one country being asked to relinquish control over land it’s always held and has governed for centuries, with another which is asked to relinquish control over land which only a couple of decades ago belonged to its neighbour and it only holds because it invaded?

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Are you sure you want to be comparing one country being asked to relinquish control over land it’s always held and has governed for centuries, with another which is asked to relinquish control over land which only a couple of decades ago belonged to its neighbour and it only holds because it invaded?

What would you say if Alaska or Hawaii demanded to secede?

[mr2mk1g 10]

There’s something of a distinction between Spain (a single cohesive country for centuries) and the US (a collection of formerly more or less autonomous states).

Whether or not the last two could secede I don't know - that would surely depend on the US constitution and how the agreement between the individual states was created? I suspect though seeing as the US was created by the mutual consent of each individual state Hawaii and Alaska would probably be on much better ground in trying to get out of it than an ill-defined portion of Spain.

Israel... again a different question... one I'd rather not get too bothered with right now because "houy" is it a complicated little bugger.

Northern Ireland would be a good comparator. Part of the UK since the 1600's, it's population mixed... some want to stay, some don't. They get a middle ground - devolved power... just like Scotland and Wales have. That is of course, if the politicians over there can stop arguing long enough over what counts as "proof" of IRA disarmament.

edit - actually Alaska was bought wasn't it? In which case I guess legally it's not quite on the same terms as the rest of the US... maybe its residents could buy it back on terms negotiated with the rest of the states? Probably be quite a high asking price.

[riggerrob 558]

Gitmo detainees made a big mistake: they fought on the wrong side.

Without a legitimate government, ambassadors, embassies, High Commissioners, etc. they will never get far treatment as prisoners of war.
Since they did not fight on behalf of any government that the USA intends on trading with in the foreseeable future, they have no claim to fair treatment.
By labelling them "illegal combatants" the USA gave themselves free rein in how they are treated.

If I were an Afghani, I would shoot every Chechin, Arab, Kosovar, etc. mujahadin who invaded my country. Most of those mujahadin are land-less trouble-makers. If they invaded Afghanistan soley to oppress/create misery for Afghanis, they deserve to die.
Period!

[jcd11235 0]

Doesn't make it right.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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there are of course no rules for war

Geneva Convention is an international treaty which we have signed and are obligated to follow.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Gravitymaster 0]

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there are of course no rules for war

Geneva Convention is an international treaty which we have signed and are obligated to follow.

read the definition of enemy combatant.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

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What would you say if Alaska or Hawaii demanded to secede?

the same I keep telling Quebecers......please do

[PhillyKev 0]

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Are you sure you want to be comparing one country being asked to relinquish control over land it’s always held and has governed for centuries, with another which is asked to relinquish control over land which only a couple of decades ago belonged to its neighbour and it only holds because it invaded?

What would you say if Alaska or Hawaii demanded to secede?

I'd say, don't let the door hit you in the ass.

[freeryde13 0]

the geneva convention is rediculous, i mean how can you have rules for war? you can have rules for a sporting event or boxing match, .....or even a duel. but by the time two parties get to war, that is by the time two leaders are ready too send other peoples kids to die instead of working out their thing. if they aren't ready to negotiate a way to work it out with out war, then how are they gonna agree on rules for war. it's a cute thought but come on once i'm in war i'm gonna do whatever it takes to win or not go there. not going there being the far more intelegent choice. every side breaks the geneva convention in war .

the thing is not to lose ones morality. and that is the stupidity of war. i think as a species , world and country, we should be evolved past that. if we focus on economic development ( as well as spiritual, but i'm trying to stick to logic not faith here) , the biggest punishment we can do to someone is to not trade with them and isolate them.

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people see me as a challenge to their balance