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mikkey

Gitmo abuse

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Actually we just don't care about people who try to kill us. You find that sad?

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Refusing due process to the accused is simply barbaric, by standards of any free country. Personally, I am outraged by my government's hypocrisy.

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How about all the other countries that engage in abuses of human rights. You know, like the countries that head the UN Human Rights Committees and torture innocent people at home. How come they aren't included in the outrage? ===============================================I don't even wanna hear this trash. In my youthfull rowdy days I spent a few days in different county jails in the US. No due process if you where broke and no family or friends to pull strings. I've seen some nasty shit bordering on torture. I watched a guy eat razor blades to get outta of cell we were in. Human rights in the US KISS MY ASS
. And all my jail time was for petty partying bullshit. Never hurt anyone. I've seen many a cop beat the fuck outta someone for no reason other than there own pleasure. END OF RANT>:(
I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

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Now it's "yeah, so we tortured some people, big deal.



Actually a better quote would be, "kill the fucking fuckers before they kill us."

In war you do whatever you need to do to ensure the safety of our people. If that means torturing terrorist scumbags then so be it. This isn't the Waldorf. This is war.

If you served in our great military you may have a better understanding of how the real world works. This isn't an episode of Law and Order where a detective walks in and questions the suspect and he politely spills his guts. No, this is war and these are terrorists. These are terrorists with vital information that could mean the difference between the capture of more tangos or the bombing of your child's school resulting in 500+ kids suffering a tragic death.

So what do you do with tangos such as these that may have vital intel? You extract the intel by any means neccessary. Period. If anyone is offended by that, made queesy or appalled then fine. Stay at home and carry on with your suburban lifestyle making sure you complain about our country every day of your lives and let the soldiers do whatever it takes to win. That is the goal afterall. Winning. And sometimes you have to win at all costs. There are no rules in war.



Forty-two

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"No, this is war and these are terrorists. These are terrorists with vital information that could mean the difference between the capture of more tangos or the bombing of your child's school resulting in 500+ kids suffering a tragic death. "

So all the fiolks in Gitmo are terrorists, everyone tortured to date is a terrorist?

Really? You believe that?

Why the fuck has nobody actually been charged with the crime?

The problem we have here is that we (its happening over here too) are giving up rights in the 'War on Terror'. Sure, its all cool and groovy when they are sparking up ferriners, until they come knocking on YOUR door in the middle of the night, and drag YOU off, because someone mentioned YOUR name under torture.........
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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

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If that means torturing terrorist scumbags then so be it.



I'm glad the rest of the civilised world disagrees with you.

My only other point would be that once you have proved them to be terrorists by at least some means beyond "they are because I say they are, no I'm not going to tell you how I know" THEN you will find fewer people worrying about what you do with them.

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Their laws say they don't agree with you. If people are doing things against the law they should be held accountable by their national law enforcement agencies.

The fact that the US is using the technicality of things happening in Gitmo instead of on US soil is hardly an endorsement on the character of the decision.

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How about all the other countries that engage in abuses of human rights. You know, like the countries that head the UN Human Rights Committees and torture innocent people at home. How come they aren't included in the outrage? ===============================================I don't even wanna hear this trash. In my youthfull rowdy days I spent a few days in different county jails in the US. No due process if you where broke and no family or friends to pull strings. I've seen some nasty shit bordering on torture. I watched a guy eat razor blades to get outta of cell we were in. Human rights in the US KISS MY ASS
. And all my jail time was for petty partying bullshit. Never hurt anyone. I've seen many a cop beat the fuck outta someone for no reason other than there own pleasure. END OF RANT>:(



This is exactly my point. This type of abuse goes on in varying degrees in prisons all over the world and not a peep from the lefties until it happens to people who have sworn to kill Americans. How much does that piss you off?

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I generally try to clean my own house before I go working on other people's.

It's appalling that people can hate so much that they engage in terroristic activity. It's more appalling that we can manipulate the law so that we can engage in questioning techniques like that and call it OK.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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"This type of abuse goes on in varying degrees in prisons all over the world and not a peep from the lefties until it happens to people who have sworn to kill Americans."

Thats just not true, its just that you either don't hear the 'Peeps', or the Peeps aren't directed at you.
Trust me, some of us lefties spend quite a lot of effort 'Peeping' away in the background.
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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

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I generally try to clean my own house before I go working on other people's.



Problem is, until Gitmo there was no interest in cleaning anything. I'd be willing to bet there are many who believe those in prison for crimes like rape and other heinous crimes get exactly what they deserve.

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It's appalling that people can hate so much that they engage in terroristic activity. It's more appalling that we can manipulate the law so that we can engage in questioning techniques like that and call it OK.



It's even more appalling when terrorists are allowed to go home because there wasn't enough "evidence" and they kill your child or best friend.


Wendy W.

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It's more appalling that we can manipulate the law so that we can engage in questioning techniques like that and call it OK.



Appalling? Negative. I'll tell you what it is. Productive. Maybe not engaging in any form of torturing tecniques to extract vital intel sounds swell in the suburbs but in the real world..... it doesn't. This isn't the Waldorf, sweety. This is war. In war you win at all costs. You do whatever is neccessary to kill the enemy before they kill you. Period. If that means cutting digits off a tango to force him to tell you which elementary school bus is going to be hijacked and bombed tomorrow then so be it.



Forty-two

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"This type of abuse goes on in varying degrees in prisons all over the world and not a peep from the lefties until it happens to people who have sworn to kill Americans."

Thats just not true, its just that you either don't hear the 'Peeps', or the Peeps aren't directed at you.
Trust me, some of us lefties spend quite a lot of effort 'Peeping' away in the background.



I'm not saying it's never been "peeped", but show me one person on these forums who has criticized worldwide prison abuses before these abuses at Gitmo and Abu Ghrab occured.

Now ask yourself why these same people get more upset about Gitmo, where the abuses are relatively minor in comparison than they do about all the other abuses within the US and worldwide?

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If that means cutting digits off a tango to force him to tell you which elementary school bus is going to be hijacked and bombed tomorrow then so be it.



What is a tango? Other than the argentinian dance of course...

Okay, so what about if the tango doesn´t know anything and he ends up with his digits chopped off? Do you apologize in Uncle Sam´s behalf and done with it?

By the way, that of chopping parts of the body off reminds me sooooo much to the taliban government....

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OK, why don't you give me an example of some productive torture techniques, and indicate when it's appropriate to use them.

Burning with cigarettes? Does it make a difference if you do it where it leaves a scar that can be seen in public?

How about molesting them? Is it OK if it's a woman who does it?

Or maybe simply pouring cold water on them and leaving them where it's cold?

And how much proof do you need before you can start. Does it matter?

I'm sorry. It's wrong. Torture leads people to confess to things they didn't do, and it leads the torturers to feel that a confession is all that counts -- the truth isn't as important as the confession and the exertion of power. So you're (that's the figurative "you", not a particular you) the biggest baddest motherfucker out there. If you wear a T-shirt saying so, you have more people fucking with you. And if you beat them up to show that you're more powerful, then you'll also have them trying sneaky things to hurt you.

Which, of course, justifies torture >:(:S

Bullshit.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Now ask yourself why these same people get more upset about Gitmo, where the abuses are relatively minor in comparison than they do about all the other abuses within the US and worldwide?



China never claims that they protect human rights or that their country is the very best and has the most freedom in the world... you do it at every ocasion you get.

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Who makes the rules? Military types? The troops on the ground? Generals? Or perhaps it's the democratic institutions of your nation?

Wonder what the those who actually make the rules think? Go check your statute books. That's where you find the "rules". They're not some etherial made up set of ideas came upon by some private in a bunker some where - the nation for whom that private enlisted came up with the rules.

The nation its self is the boss of the private - not the other way round. The private, along with every other rank in the armed forces, does what the nation tells him to do.

If there's anything there which specifically says that the state is allowed to torture individuals then that private can have fun all day cutting off people's fingers. But there's not is there.

Until there is a law which says the state is allowed to do torture people, without charge or trial, it remains against the "rules" to torture people.

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how me one person on these forums who has criticized worldwide prison abuses before these abuses at Gitmo and Abu Ghrab occured



If you mean "criticized" as being only that they spoke of it on the forums, well, probably no one.

But I've been known to donate to Amnesty International, and I'll just bet I'm not the only one. Their whole purpose is to fight torture and mistreatment in custodial situations.

I guess it doesn't count if I haven't been ranting on it in front of you, does it?

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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If that means cutting digits off a tango to force him to tell you which elementary school bus is going to be hijacked and bombed tomorrow then so be it.



What is a tango? Other than the argentinian dance of course...

Okay, so what about if the tango doesn´t know anything and he ends up with his digits chopped off? Do you apologize in Uncle Sam´s behalf and done with it?

By the way, that of chopping parts of the body off reminds me sooooo much to the taliban government....



Perhaps you need to read up about your own govt's abuses before you start bashing ours.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2002/18392.htm

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There were reports that at times security forces abused detainees and mistreated foreigners and illegal immigrants. According to Amnesty International (AI), government investigations of such abuses often were lengthy and punishments were light. Lengthy pretrial detention and delays in trials were sometimes problems. Violence against women was a problem, which the Government took steps to address. Women also faced some discrimination in the workplace. Societal discrimination against Roma and immigrants remained a problem, as did occasional violence against immigrants. Trafficking in women and teenage girls for the purpose of prostitution was a problem.



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The law prohibits such practices; however, suspects charged with terrorism at times asserted that they were abused during detention, and at times other detainees. AI continued to criticize the Government for reports of brutality by security forces, particularly directed at foreigners and illegal immigrants. Human Rights Watch and AI also reported that police abused undocumented Moroccan minors (see Section 5). In April AI issued a report titled, "Spain, Identity Crisis, Torture from Security Forces," which included examples of torture and mistreatment by police based on racial problems.

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"I'm not saying it's never been "peeped", but show me one person on these forums who has criticized worldwide prison abuses before these abuses at Gitmo and Abu Ghrab occured. "

Glances round....ummm, me. I'm pretty sure I moaned about Uzbekistan on these forums a long time ago, and have been supporting Amnesty for at least 10 years.

Not sure if that precedes public knowledge of Gitmo, certainly the Abu Ghraib farce.
--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

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Their laws say they don't agree with you. If people are doing things against the law they should be held accountable by their national law enforcement agencies.



Governments have a way of not doing that...They even let guys that admitted it run for office, and then folks in other coutries what them elected to our highest office.

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I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions



http://www.streamload.com/jmstein77/kerry2.mp3

Funny huh? You still wish Kerry had won?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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"I'm not saying it's never been "peeped", but show me one person on these forums who has criticized worldwide prison abuses before these abuses at Gitmo and Abu Ghrab occured. "

Glances round....ummm, me. I'm pretty sure I moaned about Uzbekistan on these forums a long time ago, and have been supporting Amnesty for at least 10 years.

Not sure if that precedes public knowledge of Gitmo, certainly the Abu Ghraib farce.



Well, you are the exception ;) and while you and I disagree on many issues, I respect you because you do more than just bitch about the U.S. But you get my point, I'm sure. Don't even get me started on U.N. abuses in Africa. Wonder why there is so much silence on that horrible debacle? Could it be it doesn't present as good an opportunity to bash America?

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