0
Jethers203

Weight / Rigging For 12' x 18' Flag

Recommended Posts

Good Afternoon,

I am waiting on delivery of a larger flag to rig up and start making practice jumps for DEMO's. I have done flag jumps in the past, but this will be the largest one yet. I will be rigging it with the help of two riggers.

The flag I ordered is 12' x 18' and weighs 8 lbs. I have read it will take less weight if spread across the leading edge rather than at the bottom.

Can anyone give me a rough idea as to the weight needed for the flag to fly best?

I was thinking a combination of 3 and 5 lbs spread every 3' from the center down. Maybe 3 lbs at 6', 3 lbs at 9', and 5 lbs at 12' as an example.

The weights I am planning to use are scuba diving weights like this: https://www.austinsdiving.com/sea-pearls/sea-pearls-vinyl-coated-lace-thru-lead-weight-6204?gclid=COHgn_SCl80CFRMlgQodhigDoA

This will be sewn to the leading edge of the flag as a primary attachment to my rig via a riser and cutaway system: http://www.amazon.com/Hammock-Straps-Portable-Camping-Hammocks/dp/B01CBU71LC?ie=UTF8&keywords=webbing%20attachments&qid=1465338989&ref_=sr_1_46&refinements=p_85%3A2470955011&rps=1&sr=8-46

This is the flag:
http://www.amazon.com/Premium-American-Flag-12x18-Commercial/dp/B014V6Y07M?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00

I will use both the hammock strap and flags metal thimble as the primary and secondary point of attachment to a riser with cutaway system. The weights will be attached to the loops on the hammock strap in 2 places.

Any thoughts on the weight or setup would be appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

Clint



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks for the comment.

I have not seen soft scuba weights other than ankle weights that are only 1 lb or so and wrapped in neoprene.

I'm open to alternatives.

The weights I plan to use will be covered with material, but it will be hard to make them soft.



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jethers203

Thanks for the comment.

I have not seen soft scuba weights other than ankle weights that are only 1 lb or so and wrapped in neoprene.

I'm open to alternatives.

The weights I plan to use will be covered with material, but it will be hard to make them soft.



Google soft scuba weights. Same as solid except a bag of lead pellets. Much softer and flexible. Same as skydiving weights. 1-5 pounds.
Dano

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The flag has a pretty sturdy leading edge described by:

"The header is made of a canvas/duck material with rope reinforcement sewn in. The flag has two metal thimbles and one brass grommet for attaching to your flagpole"

I may just simplify my design and do the soft scuba weights at the bottom, but reinforce the leading edge with 550 as a back up.

I liked the hard weights because they can be attached easily and I don't see them breaking. The soft weights would work in a bag on the bottom end.

Thanks for your comments.

Clint



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have jumped 4 x 6 meters flag
http://arhiva.nacional.hr/img/e/7/e/e7e1e989a959a99cbeb2348238d84ad8_700x550.jpg

Canopy was Classic 270.

I have used 7,5 kilos of scuba weight (2,5 kg @ half point, and 5 kg at botom of flag). Most important is fabric of flag, it must be similar to ZP of F111. If it is similar to mesh (porous) it will create much more drag and this will not work.

Make sure you try everyting on DZ before demo, and plan opening, so you can cutaway flag far away from crowd.

Hope this helps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks again for your advice.

The flag I ordered is Nylon and definitely not ZP.

The canopy I was going to use is a Spectre 190 loaded at 1.3 factoring in the total weight but not drag.

Now you have me thinking that it will be too much drag and not enough canopy.

Thoughts?

Thank you again.

Clint



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jethers,
It doesn't take much weight if it is in the leading edge.
I'd skip the scuba weight idea. Never heard of trying solid chunks of metal as flag weights? In my opinion=a very bad idea.

Get standard one inch tubular nylon strap and fill lengths (kinda like long shot bags)with lead shot. Then double and triple (lay them side by side) as you get to the lower end. You don't need any shot near the top. Just taper by laying side by side as you go down. Doubt it would take more than 10-12 lbs . Probably even fewer. Might cover the weights with nice parapak installed tightly around the lowest shot tubes, just to cosmetically finish it off. I have made this setup and used it for years. Mine is 12x24. F111 for the red and white stripes. Didn't take very much weight and it flies nicely with a vertical leading edge.

Neat thing about lead shot is that the little shot balls pack tighter and tighter with motion and stiffens the leading edge. Don't forget to make "joints" in the leading edge to allow it to be folded.

Please stay away from chunks of lead to use as weights.

If I might say so, your flag dimensions are kinda weird. 12x18? It will look almost like a short rectangle than a flag. Correct visual "look" for a flag with a 12 foot leading edge would be 22 or 24 feet. Your 12x18 will look somewhat cartoonish.
Suggest you re-order.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Construction tip: Sew the hollow nylon tubular lengths to the leading edge of the flag BEFORE filling them with lead shot. Sew them to the leading edge with a double throw zig zag machine. It your rigger doesn't have that machine, use a very very wide zig zag. (If you fill the shot tubes first, it will be problematic to attach them to the leading edge.)

You might message Airtwardo to confirm this flag design and get more tips.

You can also use one big shot bag at the bottom, attached with a Rapide link. That is done a lot; but you end up having to use a much larger amount of weight than you would if you have a stiffened lead shot leading edge.

You don't need to reinvent the wheel on this flag idea. It's been done and perfected before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dpreguy,

Thank you for your advice.

I will definitely ex the hard weight and stick to soft scuba or lead shot. I will also stick to the lead shot bag at the bottom until I can put the weight on the leading edge as you described. Thanks for the construction tips as well.

I thought my dimensions were pretty standard. It's 3x bigger than a 4x6 flag. I will look it over before using it.

It would be nice to have a flag made from ZP or F111. Any idea where to get one?

Thanks again.

Clint



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have only made a few jumps with a flag, but several were using some of Twardo's gear. Twardo likes leading edge weight. If memory serves me, his 800'sf flag has 2" tubular nylon filled with lead shot. A smaller flag could use 1". The nylon is cross sewn into sections so the flag will fold in sections the same width at the flag container. The tubular is then attached to the flag by wrapping it with heavy cotton fabric and sewn onto the leading edge of the flag. The cotton fabric protects the lead filled tubular from abrasion if it ever drags hard on the ground during landing. If the tubular drags much on dirt or concrete, it will heat and a hole will develop. No fun trying to patch tubular when it is filled with shot.
50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jethers203:
Actually, your dimensions ARE standard for a U.S. flag, where the correct length-to-height ratio is 1.5

It varies by country -- for example, the standard ratio for the Canadian flag is 2:1

Just one of those tidbits of knowledge learned years ago, although I don't remember when or why.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pchapman

I thought the US flag was a 1.9 ratio, length to height?




That is correct, 1:1.9 or 10:19, same thing.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pchapman

I thought the US flag was a 1.9 ratio, length to height?

(Canada follows the UK with a pretty common 2.0 ratio, while a bunch of countries use 1.5. Other ratios exist too.)



They be had in the following sizes: 2x3, 3x5, 4x6, 5x8, 6x10, 8x12, 10x15, 12x18, 15,25, 20x30, 20x38, 25x38, 25x40, 30x50, 30x60

The ones in bold I have jumped. They were commercial flags made of nylon. Wikipedia lists the proportion as 1:1.9.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jethers203

Thanks for the comments.

The 12 X 18 is a standard size flag, but I guess most people prefer the longer length. It's the same proportion as your 10 X 15 and 20 X 30.

I'll hopefully get some pics of it in the air this weekend.



One of the reasons people like to with something in the 1:2+ ratio is that they are then considered a banner and not subject the rules of a flag. Mainly having it land on the ground. When you get above 10x15 it gets a little dicey catching it without getting cold cocked by the weight.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I know of one demo team that is jumping their really large flags with multiple 10+ pound solid shot bags hanging from the leading edge. The shot bags are fully stuffed canvas bags sewn up with loops of webbing sticking out. They end up clipping with climbing carabiners a few of the bags to the bottom of the canopy and when they release the flag from the bag the weight just falls away to get to the bottom of the flag. On their largest flags they have had to add bungee systems since they toss 80+ pounds of lead and the shock of it getting to the bottom of the flag 100 feet away was too much since it was being transmitted directly to the jumper. The leading edge of the flags is made up of I think Type 7 or 8 webbing that's sewn down the entire edge and then sewn into a loop at the bottom for the biners to clip into. Most of their flags made of F111/ZP and are 500-2000+ sq feet and they fly them on 170 canopies at all sorts of loadings. You can look around and find photos but most times the weights are flying 10-20 feet behind the jumper due to the drag on the flag and the speed of the canopy. On the larger canopies or in deep brakes the flags seem to fly straighter since the canopy has less speed but if you look at the more loaded canopies they have a really good bend in the leading edge. This is not to say that it looks bad or does not work but you just have to know it going in depending on what you are looking for. An issue you can run into if you have too fast of a canopy for the flag size is the flag will actually start to turn into more of a streamer and it looks more like a triangle trailing behind since the bottom edge can not actually get tension on it. It ends up flying like this:


This tends to happen a lot on smaller canopies and larger flags but it can also happen on really big flags on big canopies.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0