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hackish

Check your webbing!

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I had a discussion last week with a rigger. He mentioned that Class 1A webbing, although approved for critical use in the military can unravel and in his opinion is not safe for harnesses. The manufacturers can provide final word but most TSO testing was done on class 1 so 1A should not be used.

Since it piqued my interest I spent time learning a bit about the stuff and how to identify it.

I went through my inventory and it turns out I had some type 8 black webbing that was in fact class 1a! This is one that slipped through the cracks with a reputable supplier.

If you're using type 8 for repairs, please check your inventory to ensure it's not going out into the field.

It is very interesting what happens if you cut the edge thread on both sides and pull the interlaced side.





-Michael

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Yay for macro lenses and 50 megapixels!

This is what you don't want to see on one edge.


This is what both should look like. It's zoomed in a lot so you can see that the fill yarn alternates around the warp with every pass instead of simply daisy chaining like on the image above.


The best way to do it is twist and compare side by side. The grey is class 1 the black is class 1a.



-Michael

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Last week I did 3 assemblies on brand new rigs. They were build with that webbing. Manufacturer confirmed that they approve the use of it. And the reason they are using it is very simple. They ran out of Class 1 and they didn't want to put the production on hold.
I'd hate to pay 3k for a rig, not made of Class 1 webbing>:(
"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

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Deyan

Last week I did 3 assemblies on brand new rigs. They were build with that webbing. Manufacturer confirmed that they approve the use of it. And the reason they are using it is very simple. They ran out of Class 1 and they didn't want to put the production on hold.
I'd hate to pay 3k for a rig, not made of Class 1 webbing>:(



The strength is the same if it's not damaged. I'm told that since class 1 is better it's generally considered that you can use it any place 1A is specified but not the other way around. I suspect it's up to the manufacturer if it doesn't specify in their TSO and if it does they'd have to have a minor change filed. When I saw it unravel I decided I wouldn't be using any. I have 200 yards for practice and prototypes... :(

-Michael

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I don't like to name names. The class 1A entered the supply chain accidentally so they're replacing my order with the proper stuff. The class 1 grey above also came from paragear so you can see it was supplied by accident. My inventory was used for practise and swooper belly bands but I'll be replacing the material before they leave.

-Michael

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in that case i would advise the the client of the situation. i certainly would agree that paying that much money for a new rig i would expect the best material possible.
as for the manufacturer saying that they did not want to stop production is a very lame and poor excuse.

you always have the option of not packing the rig and explain to the customers the reason for doing so.

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hackish

I don't like to name names.



I believe the question was for Deyan. If the manufacturer knowingly uses substandard components, then IMHO being nice no longer applies. I care more about being nice to the jumpers who have the right to know that their rig is potentially made of webbing vulnerable to total failure.
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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Class 1A is the same breaking strength as Class 1. The military specifies that 1A is accepted for critical use. My opinion is that I would not choose the 1A for a civillian parachute harness because we tend to maintain gear "differently" and certainly use it differently. I don't think it's fair to call 1A substandard, just not up to the standards I feel comfortable with.

-Michael

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I probably misunderstood something, but isn't unravelling completely with just a nick on the edge pretty much a total failure for a sport jumper? It won't fail during a jump, so at least it's not deadly, but it still grounds the rig and incurs major to total repair depending on the exact location of the failed webbing. It's bit like making a car that has the same crumpling zones as others, except all the paint will fall off if you ever scratch it. You'd have a hard time convincing the affected users that it's not made using substandard materials if it happens to them (and unlike the rig, the car at least would still drive for a bit... until it rusts through). And I'd be very pissed off if the manufacturer knowingly did that and neglected to mention it before taking my money.
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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Any time you break a thread on the edge of the webbing it's grounds for repair/grounding no matter what class webbing is used. A harness failure is quite likely fatal which makes this type of thing serious.

The issue can occur if you snag your webbing, on something (formation funneling, horny gorilla etc), if the fill thread severs and is caught just right your webbing could disintegrate. Class 1 you'll have a single broken thread, no more no less.

People don't always take the best care of their equipment and I'm frequently finding big problems, webbing worn through from asphalt, leg straps cut from butt-swoop landings list goes on.

For these reasons I, personally don't think it's a good idea. Class 1 webbing is becoming hard to obtain since it's only made at Bally now. Anyone with a dyno want to unravel a few feet of the fill then pull it to destruction? I'd love to know how much strength remains compared to a simple severed thread on class 1.

The good news is that the failure I've shown requires a specific type of snag on one edge of the webbing.

-Michael

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Quote

from what I saw on facebook rigger group Paragear is selling 1A instead



Actually, that's incorrect. We carry class 1 exclusively. (In one case that I know of, we received webbing that was labeled as class 1 by our supplier, but was actually class 1A. The manufacturers are human, we are human, you are human. To err is, unfortunately, human.)

** I would also note that jumping Class 1 webbing with edge damage is just as bad a plan as jumping Class 1A with edge damage.

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hackish

The issue can occur if you snag your webbing, on something (formation funneling, horny gorilla etc), if the fill thread severs and is caught just right your webbing could disintegrate. Class 1 you'll have a single broken thread, no more no less.



Yeah, and Sunpath also considers it unsafe. Which is why I think jumpers have the right to know the manufacturer who knowingly uses class 1A. I'm not advocating lynching Paragear for selling in good faith what was delivered to them as class 1, because mistakes happen, but that's different from deliberately prioritising speed of delivery over most suitable selection of materials. It's not the choice I'd want in my rig.
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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Another tell to look for is the identification yarn required in class 1. On Type VII it is 2 yarns on each side, the salvage, and on Type VIII there will be 2 yarns down the middle of the webbing. Class 1 is always made using shuttle loom with nylon 6,6. Class is made with nylon 6 and can be shuttle loom or shuttle less.
I have always heard the two referred to as “commercial grade” or “MIL-SPEC”.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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mjosparky

Another tell to look for is the identification yarn required in class 1. On Type VII it is 2 yarns on each side, the salvage, and on Type VIII there will be 2 yarns down the middle of the webbing. Class 1 is always made using shuttle loom with nylon 6,6. Class is made with nylon 6 and can be shuttle loom or shuttle less.
I have always heard the two referred to as “commercial grade” or “MIL-SPEC”.



I believe you're thinking of class 1 and class 2. Class 1a has the same identification markings as the class 1. They are also both mil-spec and both approved by the military for critical use. Here is a roll I just picked up military surplus for very cheap. Should be good for practice. I just wish I could find some $20 a roll type 7...

-Michael

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hackish

*** Another tell to look for is the identification yarn required in class 1. On Type VII it is 2 yarns on each side, the salvage, and on Type VIII there will be 2 yarns down the middle of the webbing. Class 1 is always made using shuttle loom with nylon 6,6. Class is made with nylon 6 and can be shuttle loom or shuttle less.
I have always heard the two referred to as “commercial grade” or “MIL-SPEC”.



I believe you're thinking of class 1 and class 2. Class 1a has the same identification markings as the class 1. They are also both mil-spec and both approved by the military for critical use. Here is a roll I just picked up military surplus for very cheap. Should be good for practice. I just wish I could find some $20 a roll type 7...

-Michael


Quote

MILITARY SPECIFICATION
WEBBING , TEXTILE, WOVEN NYLON

1.2 Classification. The nylon webbing shall be furnished in the type ad class
specified (see 1.2-1 and 6.2). The types shall conform to the requirements of
tables IT and If3 s applicable fox the class specified.

Class 1 - Critical use (shuttle loom, nylon 6,6)
Class 2 - Non-critical use (shuttle or shuttleless loom, .- -., nylon 6
or nylon 6,6)



The only difference between Class 1 and Class 1A in the type of loom. Class 2 is not rated for “critical use”. The picture you posted did not appear to have ID yarn in it, but that could be because the webbing is black.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Here is the picture missing from my previous post.

The reason I say you are mixed up is that this entire discussion is about the difference between class 1 and class 1a. Some class 1a accidentally entered the supply chain, marked and sold as class 1.

The purpose of this post is to show the difference and how to identify them because its subtle and not well documented anywhere.

-Michael

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