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base363

Repack price?

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base363

What's the going rate for a reserve repack these days?



Hardly extensive, but there's a little database of reserve packers and how much they charge here: http://jumpticketprices.com/packers.asp

It's got a few people here and there in it, but obviously not even remotely close to all that can, so only a little snapshot of prices charged.
Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

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$55, and I've been charging that since 2007. I usually ask for it on my jump account. I do more pilot rigs than jumpers (I don't know why, but I've filled that niche in the KC Market) and I do about 2-3 a week during the season.
=========Shaun ==========


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Phillbo

***60-75 around these parts or a case of beer at your riggers and pack it yourself




I hope this was a joke.

Perhaps the "pack it yourself" was not expected. I believe that anyone can pack their own reserve under the supervision of a licensed rigger. If the rigger sees what is done, then it is just as if they did it, and the rigger puts their seal to it.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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sundevil777

******60-75 around these parts or a case of beer at your riggers and pack it yourself




I hope this was a joke.

Perhaps the "pack it yourself" was not expected. I believe that anyone can pack their own reserve under the supervision of a licensed rigger. If the rigger sees what is done, then it is just as if they did it, and the rigger puts their seal to it.

And you get a chance to learn something about your gear.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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sundevil777

******60-75 around these parts or a case of beer at your riggers and pack it yourself




I hope this was a joke.

Perhaps the "pack it yourself" was not expected. I believe that anyone can pack their own reserve under the supervision of a licensed rigger. If the rigger sees what is done, then it is just as if they did it, and the rigger puts their seal to it.

In reality it is not legal for a rigger to supervise a reserve pack job and for it to be used either by a pilot in aircraft or by a jumper, even the owner. Part 105, below, says that a MAIN may be supervised by a rigger. It says a reserve must be packed by a rigger.

In part 65 Privileges of a rigger it says,

§65.125 Certificates: Privileges.

(a) A certificated senior parachute rigger may—

(1) Pack or maintain (except for major repair) any type of parachute for which he is rated; and

(2) Supervise other persons in packing any type of parachute for which that person is rated in accordance with §105.43(a) or §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.

(b) A certificated master parachute rigger may—

(1) Pack, maintain, or alter any type of parachute for which he is rated; and

(2) Supervise other persons in packing, maintaining, or altering any type of parachute for which the certificated parachute rigger is rated in accordance with §105.43(a) or §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.


The privilege of supervision is applicable ONLY to the sections of part 105 having to do with a main. The FAA has recently sent guidance to this effect to inspectors. If the requirements section of Part 65f to become a rigger it says

§65.115 Senior parachute rigger certificate: Experience, knowledge, and skill requirements.

Except as provided in §65.117, an applicant for a senior parachute rigger certificate must—

(a) Present evidence satisfactory to the Administrator that he has packed at least 20 parachutes of each type for which he seeks a rating, in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions and under the supervision of a certificated parachute rigger holding a rating for that type or a person holding an appropriate military rating;


Nowhere does it say it can go in the air.

YES, we have all been doing it forever. Most of the rigs packed by rigger candidates for 50 years have went into the air with a riggers sign off. But it is NOT legal, the FAA has specifically said so and told it's inspectors as much. All emphasis added by me.

I expect lot of augments, yes I know we've done it forever but the FAA has figured out that under the regulations it is not legal for a rigger to supervise a reserve and for it to be jumped.

Nomex on, but I won't be arguing it. I know what the FAA has said recently.


§105.43 Use of single-harness, dual-parachute systems.

No person may conduct a parachute operation using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, unless that system has at least one main parachute, one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container that are packed as follows:

(a) The main parachute must have been packed within 180 days before the date of its use by a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certificated parachute rigger.

(b) The reserve parachute must have been packed by a certificated parachute rigger—

(1) Within 180 days before the date of its use, if its canopy, shroud, and harness are composed exclusively of nylon, rayon, or similar synthetic fiber or material that is substantially resistant to damage from mold, mildew, and other fungi, and other rotting agents propagated in a moist environment; or
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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If I signed for it and put my seal on it, I packed it. It does not matter who's hands I used to do it. But if I did use someone else's hands you can be sure my eyes would be watching those hands just as closely as they would watch my own. I could only pack one reserve at a time, no matter who I was watching. I could easily supervise a line of several packers packing mains. It's a completely different use of the word "supervise"
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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To emphasize the point, I'll quote a short bit of what Councilman24 wrote:

Quote

Nowhere does it say it can go in the air.

YES, we have all been doing it forever. Most of the rigs packed by rigger candidates for 50 years have went into the air with a riggers sign off. But it is NOT legal, the FAA has specifically said so and told it's inspectors as much.



That is the conclusion that came up in other threads about rigger training. Supervised reserve pack jobs can't go into service. (in the USA)

(Even if people were to accept supervised pack jobs, I'm surprised that the price would be LESS than normal. Supervising and teaching a good reserve pack job, for anything other than a nearly-graduated rigger-in-training, takes more effort than doing the job oneself!)

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councilman24

The privilege of supervision is applicable only to the sections of part 105 having to do with a main. The FAA has recently sent guidance to this effect to inspectors.



Could you provide the reference for the guidance, please?

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FAA order 8900.1 editorial update Third Quarter FY 2015, Volume 5 Chapter 5 Title 14 CFR Part 65, Section 9, 5-1336 added paragraph E., which didn't exist in previous versions, as follows,

E. Current Certificate and Type Rating. No person may pack, maintain, or alter any personnel-carrying parachute intended for emergency use in connection with civil aircraft of the United States (including the reserve parachute of a dual parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping) unless that person holds an appropriate current certificate and type rating.

While the supervision privilege provisions are in earlier paragraphs this paragraph adds the specific requirement that if it's going in the air the certificated rigger has to do the work on the emergency or reserve parachute.


Also of interest to you in ongoing discussions on another topic is paragraph D which has been in 8900.1 at least since 2010 and perhaps previously.

D. Certificated Parachute Rigger. A certificated parachute rigger, without respect to ratings, may pack, maintain, or alter the main parachute of a dual parachute system to be used for intentional jumping.

When a master is required other paragraphs state "certificated master parachute rigger".
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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gowlerk

If I signed for it and put my seal on it, I packed it. It does not matter who's hands I used to do it. ...



It does in the US, see reference above. Guidance to inspectors since summer of 2015. I don't know the regulations in Canada.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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Yeah I'm pretty sure here in Canada the supervised pack job is acceptable as it has always been.

(We don't have a long list of federal regulations on skydiving or rigging, which can sometimes conflict with 'what everyone has always done'. The CSPA's rigger's rules are more casual too -- other than some privileges of different ratings, there's no long list of mandatory requirements. Just do good work that you could defend to your peers...)

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councilman24

FAA order 8900.1 editorial update Third Quarter FY 2015, Volume 5 Chapter 5 Title 14 CFR Part 65, Section 9, 5-1336 added paragraph E., which didn't exist in previous versions, as follows,

E. Current Certificate and Type Rating. No person may pack, maintain, or alter any personnel-carrying parachute intended for emergency use in connection with civil aircraft of the United States (including the reserve parachute of a dual parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping) unless that person holds an appropriate current certificate and type rating.

While the supervision privilege provisions are in earlier paragraphs this paragraph adds the specific requirement that if it's going in the air the certificated rigger has to do the work on the emergency or reserve parachute.



The quote from 8900.1 is actually verbatim from 65.111(a) -- no change from the original 1962 version.

That part of the regulation was in existence at the same time as Part 149 (Parachute Lofts), which clearly allowed uncertificated persons to work under supervision. Supervision then and now means: observes to the extent necessary and takes responsibility for the finished product.

Same church, different pew:
The NPRM (64 Federal Register No. 70, page 18304) and 2001 rule change (66 Federal Register No. 90, page 23543ff) included the attempt to regularize the supervision of dz packers. There is nothing in the NPRM or 2001 rule change preamble to suggest that the FAA was intending to limit supervision to main parachutes. We know the rule change was poorly written -- typos, grammar, etc. -- so the the privileges phrase should be read as it was intended: Supervise for types for which rated, and in addition, supervise packing main parachutes IAW 105.43(a) or 105.45(b)(1).

The reason why main parachutes need to be mentioned separately is because they do not have "type." Only reserve parachutes have "type." If main parachutes were "back type" parachutes, a person could pack 20 mains to qualify for a senior ticket.

Mark

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My FAA Priciple Managing Inspector does not agree with you and that the guidance in 8900.1 and the rule in 65.111 is clear. I didn't originate this interpretation. It was in another document besides 8900.1 but I am unclear who showed me that document. Individual Notices, Memo, etc to inspectors, similar to the 2010 Notice on not allowing paper seals, are no longer routinely issued. Changes in guidance are put directly into 8900.1, hence adding 65.111a to 8900.1 last summer.

But as there is little way to determine who's hands were on a rig I expect the practice of supervised approved parachute pack jobs to continue.

For thoses that don't know 8900.1 is the huge document which tells FAA inspectors how to do their job.

BTW $65 and $70, Preserve V pilot rigs $90 (read the manual to see why)
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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The FAA recently changed thier definition of "packing under supervision" to curb abuse of a loop-hole in the FARs.
Packing under supervision was originally included to allow apprentices to practice under supervision. The original intent was for them to practice under supervision (coaching) until they had packed the minimum 20 reserves needed before the practical test.
Unfortunately a few Master Riggers abused this loop-hole and over-worked apprentice riggers, forcing apprentices to pack dozens or hundreds of reserves without pay. This abuse got scary whgen those arrogant Master Riggers decided that they did not to be in the same room as the apprentice???

So the recent FAA decision merely reinforces the original concept of the FAR.

Meanwhile, CSPA policies are more flexible, allowing a licensed rigger to sign on top of an apprentice's reserve pack job, provided the license rigger inspected the rig (for structural integrity) and observed every step of the pack job. Canadian rigger apprentices rarely pack more than the minimum ten reserves "under supervision" before testing. Also, some of those practice pack jobs are done during a formal course, usually with two or three CSPA Rigger Instructors supervising.

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Councilman is correct. At one of the last meetings in conjunction with the PIA Symposium the FAA guy stated that rigs packed under supervision by the trainee are not OK.

(Private gripe: Unfortunately, the FAA no longer has actual recurrency meetings where all can discuss issues-changes etc.. It's all done now in a "worthless-fakey, waste of time process", online.) Sorry, my gripe.

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