timrf79 0 #1 May 10, 2016 I am 6'6" at 215lbs (plus gear), with right now 80 jumps (within 7 month). I jump every weekend as weather allows, which is up to 10 jumps (slow packer). Currently I jump a 230 Sabre2. On openings I get end-cell closures (every time) that make the canopy turn ~90 degree, followed usually by a dive. While I am used to it, I understand it could be a problem in larger formation jumps, or when some folks have not tracked away that well. Based on my research the end cell problem on Sabre2's get better with high loading. Therefore should I consider downsizing to a 190? (~1.3 WL) Generally I am happy with my canopy, can't hold front riser turns beyond 270/360 degrees (but this might be a lack of muscle problem..) Downwind/No-wind landings are all fine stand-up landings. Accuracy depends a lot on traffic (as I rather avoid traffic than to bully myself into getting to the marked target). Will certainly check with some more senior folks at my DZ, but the more input the better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wasatchrider 0 #2 May 10, 2016 why not try a 210 or hell try a 190 and see how it goesBASE 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Di0 1 #3 May 10, 2016 It might solve that problem, it might create you some new ones. Who knows. But right now you're loading a SA2 at about 1:1, while that is a big SA2 it should still be a relatively OK wing loading to get normal openings, out of curiosity, do you roll the nose? Try either rolling it fewer times, or even not rolling the nose but putting it straight into the bulk of the canopy when you cocoon it, see if that changes anything. Also, is the SA2 used? Are the lines in trim? Not saying that downsizing is unreasonable but if you're not sure about it, there might be other alternatives to it before you go buy a new canopy.I'm standing on the edge With a vision in my head My body screams release me My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3mpire 0 #4 May 10, 2016 QuoteOn openings I get end-cell closures (every time) that make the canopy turn ~90 degree, followed usually by a dive. I've done nearly all my jumps on either a SA2 170 or SA2 150 and a 90 degree turn on opening was common. Just downsizing isn't a guarantee to change that. Have you considered learning to steer your canopy using rear risers? Because my canopies commonly turn on opening, when the canopy stands me up I put my hands on my rears and give left or right corrections to counter any turns or dives. It doesn't take much. Plus you get the added benefit of being able to react quickly if someone else you didn't see gets into your airspace. At 80 jumps you should talk to an instructor or a knowledgable canopy pilot about this, but it's a good skill to develop. Plus it doesn't require a downsize. If your canopy is ever doing something you don't like, and you're given the option of developing a new skill to control it vs downsizing and hoping that a higher wing loading will solve it... I'd go with developing the new skill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timrf79 0 #5 May 10, 2016 Thanks all for the input. My process for canopy opening is usually to grab rear risers as soon as canopy is open and rear riser steer either out of traffic or towards the airport (landing area). Once I am on the right heading, i then stow the slider, open visor on helmet and release brakes. Generally I follow the packing video from PD for the Sabre 2. From there I have tried packing by either leaving the nose as is and slider pulled out (that triangle) and by pushing nose straight into cocoon (half-way and all the way). I seem to get softer longer snivel) openings when nose is pushed in a ll the way, but end cell closure seems unaffected. I do fold the tail cell towards the middle before "cocooning". To simulate a 1.3 WL (as it would be under a 190), I would need to jump with 50lbs. of weight. That seems a bit much, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 21 #6 May 10, 2016 I'm your weight exactly and find a Triathlon 210 is a really sweet ride in everything from zero wind to about 15 mph. I also have a Tri 190 that I use when winds are higher. I once flew with a couple of Sabres nearby through some really rough air and they BOTH had end cell partial collapse issues. My Tri was rock solid. Perhaps the Sabre pilots were applying some braking. I fly full speed through turbulence to keep ram air inflation pressure up. Learned that from Brian Germain. HIGHLY recommend his book The Parachute and Its Pilot. Pricey but worth every penny. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #7 May 10, 2016 Lightly loaded Sabre2s will frequently have closed end cells. Packing changes will not affect it at all. After over a decade of listening to people complain about closed end cells and/or slider hang-ups on Sabre2s the best option is to just change canopies or learn to live with it. Getting good separation is mandatory regardless. Even if you have a nice opening under a fancy new 190, your friend might not, and hitting another canopy on deployment is about as pleasant as running a bicycle into a park-bench. Downsizing because you don't want closed end cells really isn't a good reason, if you just want to go faster, that's a good reason. While 1.3 under a 190 isn't tremendously aggressive, it's really pushing it at sub-100 jumps IMO. Especially on a hot no-wind day or landing out. Plus, even if you think you're being whipped or diving under a 230, it's really just a slow turn that recovers fast to level flight. When that 190 whips a 180 degree turn the first time you're going to get a whole new perspective on it. BTW, people often want larger canopies for bigger formation jumps, not smaller. It gives you more time to find a safe place to land. Just something to think about. Have fun, be safe. NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 21 #8 May 10, 2016 "BTW, people often want larger canopies for bigger formation jumps, not smaller. It gives you more time to find a safe place to land. Just something to think about." Good point. With light wing loading you can usually be among the last to touch down and that is a safety benefit. Can't collide with canopies that are far below you. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timrf79 0 #9 May 11, 2016 Thanks for the input. No matter what by the time I get a new canopy I will be at 100+ jumps... I'll see what fits my rig and go from there.... Though, on windy days I was told smaller wings are less affected by winds/thermics (or as one experienced jumper said "i put on as much lead as I can") Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gunsmokex 1 #10 May 11, 2016 http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Canopy_Control/Downsizing_Checklist_47.html#flat Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timrf79 0 #11 May 14, 2016 Decided to go ahead and got a new Sabre 2 190. Done 4 jumps with it today and have no end cell closure issues anymore. Openings more on heading, some of it might be packing/wind/position (hard to tell after 4 jumps). Landings are good, even had one downwind landing today. Can tell that I have room to grow with the canopy. Nice benefit is the new 190 packs so much easier than my 230... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Di0 1 #12 May 17, 2016 timrf79 Nice benefit is the new 190 packs so much easier than my 230... No shit. I'm standing on the edge With a vision in my head My body screams release me My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xijonix 0 #13 May 21, 2016 QuoteBased on my research the end cell problem on Sabre2's get better with high loading. I load my Sabre2 at 1.65 and end cell closures are a regular occurrence for me on almost every jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Quagmirian 40 #14 May 22, 2016 I fail to see how end cell closure is a problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
garygruber 0 #15 May 29, 2016 80 jumps is not the time to think about downsizing. Get some more air time under your belt first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydude2000 3 #16 May 29, 2016 How about demoing another canopy in the same size? Or even a different SA2 in the same size? Have a rigger check the trim. Have an experienced packer watch you pack. I'd try all of that before trying to cure the issue with downsizing. Even maybe have a more experienced jumper/rigger put a couple jumps on it, at the same or different W/L. Might give you more insight. Good luck. PULL!! or DIE!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anachronist 2 #17 May 29, 2016 Pretty aggressive downsize there, but not absurd. Just make sure you put 200 jumps on that 190 before you go sniffing around for a 170. You probably "could" handle a 170, but you "shouldn't" until you get a lot more experience. It's not easy peasy landings you have to worry about, it's the accidental low pull with line twists that puts you in a downwind or rotary off landing that will bite you. According to the old rule of thumb of 100 jumps per 0.1 increase over 1:1 in wingloading, you shouldn't be jumping a 190 (1.3 WL as you stated) until you have 300 jumps. A bit conservative perhaps, but just make sure you don't make it worse by jumping to a 170 with only 150 or 200 jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites