sundevil777 93 #26 October 8, 2004 QuoteTo anyone that thinks Fahrenheit 9/11 is based on lies,fabrications,editing,fairy tales and/or pixy dust I ask you go to michaelmoore.com where he show the SOURCES for his movie LINE by LINE. Rather hard to dispute no matter how much you dislike him or the democratic cause No, it is not at all hard to dispute Moron's "facts". Ok, the very first "factual back-up" on this site may not be factual: Quote FAHRENHEIT 9/11: Fox was the first network to call Florida for Bush. Before that, some other networks had called Florida for Gore, and they changed after Fox called it for Bush. “With information provided from the Voter News Service, NBC was the first network to project Gore the winner in Florida at 7:48 pm. At 7:50 pm ,CNN and CBS project Gore the winner in Florida as well.” By 8:02 pm , all five networks and the Associated Press had called Gore the winner in Florida. Even the VNS called Gore the winner at 7:52 pm. At 2:16 am, Fox calls Florida for Bush, NBC follows at 2:16 am. ABC is the last network to call the Florida for Bush, at 2:20 am, while AP and VNS never call Florida for Bush. CNN: Did MM forget about CNN and CBS? From the 59 deceits page: http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm Quote At 10:00 p.m., which networks took the lead in retracting the premature Florida win for Gore? They were CNN and CBS, not Fox. (The two networks were using a shared Decision Team.) See Linda Mason, Kathleen Francovic & Kathleen Hall Jamieson, “CBS News Coverage of Election Night 2000: Investigation, Analysis, Recommendations” (CBS News, Jan. 2001), pp. 12-25.) Making a movie that is powerful and evokes an emotional response is no virtue in itself. When it is called a documentary by the maker, it should hold up to scrutiny, not just given a pass because it makes people think! From the 59 deceits page: Quote The key to Moore's response, and to the movie itself, is summarized by Boston University Law Professor Randy Barnett: ...I was struck by the sheer cunningness of Moore's film. When you read Kopel, try to detach yourself from any revulsion you may feel at a work of literal propaganda receiving such wide-spread accolades from mainstream politicos, as well as attendance by your friends and neighbors. Instead, notice the film's meticulousness in saying only (or mostly) "true" or defensible things in support of a completely misleading impression. In this way, Kopel's care in describing Moore's "deceits" is much more interesting than other critiques I have read, including that of Christopher Hitchens. Kopel's lawyerly description of Moore's claims shows the film to be a genuinely impressive accomplishment in a perverse sort of way (the way an ingenious crime is impressive)--a case study in how to convert elements that are mainly true into an impression that is entirely false--and this leads in turn to another thought. If this much cleverness was required to create the inchoate "conspiracy" (whatever it may be, as it is never really specified by Moore), it suggests there was no such conspiracy. With this much care and effort invested in uncovering and massaging the data, if there really was a conspiracy of the kind Moore suggests, the evidence would line up more neatly behind it, rather than being made to do cartwheels so as to be "true" but oh-so-misleading. If the facts don't fit, shouldn't we acquit?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fstz28 0 #27 October 9, 2004 Open mind is a good concept, but a skeptical one is better, towards both sides. I'm not a fan on the guy, but will be renting the movie soon. Having access to a lot of aars from the box and briefs from buds that are there and coming back i know there are alot of things the media doesn't get and hence to general public doesn't. Unfortunately people just have to know that they don't know it all. Having worked a protection detail for kerry at one of his homes i'm not a fan of the guy. my opinion of him is very unfavorable, but its my opinion and i won't impress it upon others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dubbayab 0 #28 October 9, 2004 I watched the movie last night and was floored. The only part I am speaking of is the beginning where GW is out on vacation, away from the white house during the attack of 9-11. I find it overwelming to find Bin Laden and bush were tight in the money thing- oil. Conculsion from only watching the movie and reading no books on this subject. If what I saw was true It means the republican's installed a puppet resgime in the white house. OR micheal moore dosen't like the president we currently have, and want's to spread doubt. It is just a movie, watching The Passion og Christ didn't make me a better christian, or start going to curch. I will not allow a hollywood production to affect my vote. If the content of this movie is true I believe GW would have been impeached by now, there are too many people who hate him and would give him up to the government. Remember Clinton and the blow job, he got impeached over it, so I believe GW would by now have also met the same fate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #29 October 9, 2004 I agreed with most of your post, but 2 minor points. QuoteThe only part I am speaking of is the beginning where GW is out on vacation, away from the white house during the attack of 9-11. He was actually NOT on vacation, but visiting a school in Florida. Small difference, right? QuoteI find it overwelming to find Bin Laden and bush were tight in the money thing- oil. Actually, the movie accused him of having ties to the Bin Laden family... specifically their oil companies. What it fails to mention is that almost any company involved in oil dealings with the middle east is involved with one or more of the Bin Laden companies since they are some of the largest corporations in the Mid-East. I wouldn't be surprised in many an oil exec from Shell, ExxonMobil, BP, Texaco, etc hadn't met or dealt with someone from the BL Group companies personally.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #30 October 9, 2004 He was actually NOT on vacation, but visiting a school in Florida. Small difference, right? ------------------------------------------------------------- I may be a moron but me thinks if I was the President of the USA and I was told we were being attacked I don't think I'd sit there for 7 or so mins. thinking about what to do. I'd be jumping outta my seat and getting on the horn w/ the Pentagon or whomever IMMEDIATLY. WTF I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #31 October 10, 2004 QuoteI may be a moron but me thinks if I was the President of the USA and I was told we were being attacked I don't think I'd sit there for 7 or so mins. thinking about what to do. I'd be jumping outta my seat and getting on the horn w/ the Pentagon or whomever IMMEDIATLY. WTF Blah blah blah. Blah blah blah. We've been over this more than a few times. Use the search button and resurrect one of the old threads if it's important to you. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #32 October 10, 2004 QuoteI may be a moron but me thinks if I was the President of the USA and I was told we were being attacked I don't think I'd sit there for 7 or so mins. thinking about what to do. I'd be jumping outta my seat and getting on the horn w/ the Pentagon or whomever IMMEDIATLY. WTF That has nothing to do with my comment. Like Jimbo said, it's been done to death.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #33 October 10, 2004 Goddamn. Sorry if I ruffeled some feathers. First time I saw it. VOTE KERRY. Flame awayI hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #34 October 11, 2004 There's something paradoxical about promoting Moore's film to anyone so they may make an informed decision. I like Hitchens' commentary best: (Hitchens is a former Marxist and left wing pundit who's become disillusioned with the left in America and has always been one of the most intelligent writers) http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/ Best quote from the article: "To describe this film as dishonest and demagogic would almost be to promote those terms to the level of respectability. To describe this film as a piece of crap would be to run the risk of a discourse that would never again rise above the excremental. To describe it as an exercise in facile crowd-pleasing would be too obvious. Fahrenheit 9/11 is a sinister exercise in moral frivolity, crudely disguised as an exercise in seriousness. It is also a spectacle of abject political cowardice masking itself as a demonstration of "dissenting" bravery." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #35 October 14, 2004 but what it did mention is that the bin ladens were flown out of the country when the whole country was supposedly grounded! havn't heard that been proven wrong yet? so how long were dropzones grounded for?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #36 October 14, 2004 I just watched this movie... The connections are extremely valid between the Bushes and the Bin Ladens... From a logical standpoint trying not to be too emotional I am almost stunned by this film... I'm going to have to think about it... Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #37 October 14, 2004 Sigh, more orchestrated bogosity. Woodward has already said this was entirely his decision in his capacity at the time and he's clearly no Bush fan. If the shoe were on the other foot this would be taken as proof positive, but since it categorically refutes the case it is conveniently ignored. Interesting interview with Bin Laden's brother: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5403841/ That's the problem with disinformation, half truths and downright lies; fair minded people walk away thinking there's a lot of damndable stuff going on, when infact they've been presented with a selection of facts out of context with lot's of false assumptions they're not equipped to challenge. Underlying the Bin Laden flight accusations is the convenient presumption that the family which had disowned the guy at the time had something to hide and that they felt perfectly safe in the USA after the biggest attack on it in history, just assumed (at that time) to be by their relative. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stuffit 0 #38 October 14, 2004 QuoteHe was actually NOT on vacation, but visiting a school in Florida. Small difference, right? ------------------------------------------------------------- I may be a moron but me thinks if I was the President of the USA and I was told we were being attacked I don't think I'd sit there for 7 or so mins. thinking about what to do. I'd be jumping outta my seat and getting on the horn w/ the Pentagon or whomever IMMEDIATLY. WTF Who knows what that agent said to the President? He could have simply been telling him that he looks like a chimp. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #39 October 14, 2004 Quote Blah blah blah. Blah blah blah. We've been over this more than a few times. Use the search button and resurrect one of the old threads if it's important to you. Right, so something this important should be tossed to the side? This is how the CiC reacts while the country is under attack. But then again, we still hear about a white house BJ to this very day....as we can see that is the more important issue._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #40 October 15, 2004 Quotebut what it did mention is that the bin ladens were flown out of the country when the whole country was supposedly grounded! Must you end every sentence with an exclamation point? Please, give a homey a break. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #41 October 15, 2004 ***That's the problem with disinformation, half truths and downright lies; fair minded people walk away thinking there's a lot of damndable stuff going on, when infact they've been presented with a selection of facts out of context with lot's of false assumptions they're not equipped to challenge are you talking about the GWB administrations speeches to your country or MM's atempt at interpreting them?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #42 October 15, 2004 QuoteRight, so something this important should be tossed to the side? ANOTHER discussion of F9/11 is "this important"? Are you kidding me? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #43 October 15, 2004 >ANOTHER discussion of F9/11 is "this important"? Are you kidding me? But we've only had around 20 threads on it so far! Which is nothing compared to, say, gun threads. And we all know the denizens of Speaker's Corner can't get enough of either one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TypicalFish 0 #44 October 15, 2004 Quote>ANOTHER discussion of F9/11 is "this important"? Are you kidding me? But we've only had around 20 threads on it so far! Which is nothing compared to, say, gun threads. And we all know the denizens of Speaker's Corner can't get enough of either one. You forgot "John Kerry/GWB is the Antichrist"... It's a daily thing..."I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #45 October 15, 2004 Quote are you talking about the GWB administrations speeches to your country or MM's atempt at interpreting them? You offer no new information. Did you read the interview or research anything on Woodward's comments? Are your contributions confined to partisan jibes in the face of damning evidence of Moore's malfeasance? I mean you *chose* to respond, is your idea of a discussion or debate simply to ignore the facts offered and think you've rebutted merely by posting verbage? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #46 October 16, 2004 michael moore aside, GWB is an idiot! that is what the thread is all about, he won't debate anyone coz he is a dumb f**k and if he does he needs an earpiece so someone can answer the questions for him! he is a bulshiting moron! and you must be a moron if you try to defend him! oops wrong thread"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #47 October 16, 2004 >and you must be a moron if you try to defend him! Easy there. A smiley does not make it OK to go after people like that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #48 October 16, 2004 QuoteFrom a logical standpoint trying not to be too emotional I am almost stunned by this film... Billvon has even minimized the importance of the factual problems with the movie because it evokes such an emotional response (I think I have paraphrased him correctly, either him or Quade). It is certainly good at raising people's temperature, but it is not a virtue in itself for a movie that claims to tell us the truth.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #49 October 16, 2004 sorry, just get a bit wound up thats all! i hate GWB so much! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #50 October 17, 2004 QuoteRight, so something this important should be tossed to the side? This is how the CiC reacts while the country is under attack. But what did Kerry do? Sit on his hind end for 40 minutes "not thinking" until he was told to evacuate. Yep. 33 minutes longer than Bush, and you think Kerry is going to be a better terrorism President. Coolio. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites