JerryBaumchen 1,046 #26 April 24, 2016 Hi Rob, QuotePlagiarism is rampant in the parachute industry. As it is in every industry I've ever been involved with. QuoteThe 3 basic patterns of MARD are: pin, hook and lasso. A fairly good synopsis; until someone comes up with a totally new concept. QuoteThen (Frenchman) Eric Fradet refined the pin MARD and put it into production in Jerome Bunker's Advance skydiving rig. Eric also patented his device, which has stopped some development by others. His patent is for a 'pin puller.' Kelly Farrington ( who had the original concept for the RAX System ) was able to get around the patent because the RAX is not a pin puller. The pin stays stationary and the device pulls away from the pin. That IMO is a major difference. I just wanted to clarify that. Jerry Baumchen PS) Remember, the law firm who helps you get a patent will also help you in finding the loopholes in the other guy's patent. C'est la vie. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eric.fradet 17 #27 April 24, 2016 Peregrine ACE MARD is infringing my US patent, I sold my device to Sunrise Rigging, there is no reason someone steals other people idea and get away with that. They will have to pay or go to court. eric Fradet Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beatnik 2 #28 April 24, 2016 Not missing the point at all. But thanks for your concern. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #29 April 24, 2016 Hi Rob, I forgot something: QuoteSkyhooks are standard in Sigmas and licensed to a half-dozen other manufacturers: Aerodyne, Marrs, Sun Path, etc. About two years ago, I was contacted by someone in western Europe. I then provided a RAX mockup; and later found out that this person was representing MARS. It is my understanding that MARS has abandoned the Skyhook and is now using the RAX System. They did provide me with a video of some of their testing of the RAX System on their rigs. Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mathrick 2 #30 April 24, 2016 eric.fradetPeregrine ACE MARD is infringing my US patent, I sold my device to Sunrise Rigging, there is no reason someone steals other people idea and get away with that. They will have to pay or go to court. Having the same idea is not "stealing", we need to get rid of the backwards thinking promoted by broken "intellectual property" laws. The only people who reliably benefit from patents are patent lawyers. For everyone else (including inventors), patents are a net loss. Patents don't work, have never worked, are based on wrong assumptions about economics and very disagreeable ideas about ownership and fairness, and persist despite the fact that the only actual data we have points towards them hurting innovation and productivity."Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #31 April 24, 2016 Gowlerk, You silly boy! Quit interfering with Beatnick's fun. Beatnick's is a fiercely competitive fellow who feels the need to compete with me. Beatnick's favorite pass-time is putting me down. For example, I sewed and jumped a Sidewinder kit-parachute back in 1986 and made a few hundred jumps on that 210 square foot 7-cell before I sewed together a Shrike 9-cell canopy 220 square foot 9-cell) during the early 1990s. I made a few more hundred jumps on my Shrike kit-parachute before retiring it. But nowadays, Beatnick feels the need to brag that he is the world expert on kit-parachutes! ??????????????????? Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #32 April 24, 2016 Agreed! After reading the ACE manual, I have concluded that ACE is at high risk of accidentally dis-connecting during packing. The red and green flap is an internal pin protector. Meanwhile, the manual repeatedly warns against poking the ACE with a packing paddle. May I suggest 2 solutions? The first solution (to packing error) is adding an extra internal flap (aka. Skyhook) to protect the ACE. The second "fix" involves adding a triangular apron to the top of the free-bag (ala. Wings, Talon 2, etc.). Sew the ACE onto the apron so that the apron protects the ACE while packing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beatnik 2 #33 April 24, 2016 If you want to sling insults Rob, you can do it somewhere else. I am not putting you down at all, I am merely pointing out facts. If you are taking it as an insult then my apologizes as the are not intended that way. But merely given to the readers of this website that there is more to it out there and that they shouldn't necessarily believe partial information or consider it as the whole truth. Competing with you is a good one. What am I competing against you for? This gave me the best laugh I have had in a long time. Thank you for that. Also, I would really be interested in knowing what your example has to do with me or where you got this silly notation from. Sounds like you might have to figure out who you are talking about before you drag people into something and try to insult them. I would also like to see these examples of bragging that you are claiming. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #34 April 25, 2016 Hint: Mr. Beatnick, When I start a comment with "for example" I am using it to illustrate a concept .... sort of the way Jesus Christ taught with parables. We both agree that it is impossible to write the entire history of ram-air parachutes in a dozen lines..... I was trying to explain that no single person deserves all the glory for inventing any parachuting gadget. Rather I was trying to explain that one guy invents a gadget, a second guy does some of the R&D, a third guy puts the gadget into production, a forth guy polishes the gadget, then the cycle repeats ........... Sheeeeeest! Some of those perfectionist riggers!!!!!! [email] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #35 April 25, 2016 Alrighty. We all, me included, get enthusiastic about the cool stuff we've been into and sometimes have posted more than once about the same stuff at different times in different threads. And the history of MARDs is a little complex, whether about dates or to what degree one design derives from another. There is an element of "put up or shut up" when it comes to still-proprietary work by a company. Ok, company A did something and company B did something else, but if company C also did something cool... but doesn't want to talk about it yet, what can I say, it doesn't help the conversation much to say, "Nyah nyah I got a secret you don't.... but I'm not gonna tell". Anyway, I should try downloading that ACE [& Peregrine] manual again. Now I know why the thing didn't seem to want to download or open, it is a freaking 830 MB or so...[Correction, that's the rig manual, not the ACE one. Downloads keep failing.] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beatnik 2 #36 April 25, 2016 QuoteWhen I start a comment with "for example" I am using it to illustrate a concept .... sort of the way Jesus Christ taught with parables. I don't see this as the case since you brought up specific examples and made a statement or accusation that I am doing something. If this were the case you would be able to cite examples of it. Here is the quote exactly I am referring to. QuoteFor example, I sewed and jumped a Sidewinder kit-parachute back in 1986 and made a few hundred jumps on that 210 square foot 7-cell before I sewed together a Shrike 9-cell canopy 220 square foot 9-cell) during the early 1990s. I made a few more hundred jumps on my Shrike kit-parachute before retiring it. But nowadays, Beatnick feels the need to brag that he is the world expert on kit-parachutes! Please bring forward examples of me bragging about this. If this was a parable as you suggested, you should be able to bring forth examples of this to further illustrate the moral lesson you are trying to tell. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,903 #37 April 25, 2016 I have some personal experience with Jim. I am not going to reply further to him. I would encourage you to do the same. I'm sorry I already made the mistake of replying to him once.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #38 April 25, 2016 Everyone brings their own personalities to the table. Some are team players some are not. I have always enjoyed discussions with those who choose to share their ideas and knowledge about a subject. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eric.fradet 17 #39 April 28, 2016 I think you are wrong, when you are in the parachute industry , you are supposed to know who has been invented such device, you ask for the permission to use it, it is not only a matter of money, it is also a matter to be honest with the inventor who is proud of his product and deserve his recognition from others, if it is a good invention. For instance, I do not ask as much money for my invention as Bill Booth sells his, and I pretend my device works better than the Skyhook, which his not reliable, I know that there are many riggers out on the field that absolutely refuse to pack Skyhook because it is so complicated. In this sport, nobody wants to pay for something they can try to get for free, If there is no patent how do you know who was the first one to successfully create something new to move forward ? it will not be fair for someone involving time and money to not be paid off for his effort to make the sport safer. Now you are right on one point : the most beautiful invention are anonymous .. who knows who is the inventor of the single layer canopy with glide ratio is point 9 and flies great in European mountains since 4 years ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beatnik 2 #40 April 28, 2016 I completely agree. Unfortunately, I have first hand experience that a few within the industry do not always ask for permission to use an invention and go to great lengths to avoid paying for it. Some companies are more honest about this though and it is too bad that others give the entire industry a bad name because of their practices. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #41 April 28, 2016 Eric, I think emotionally you're feeling like everyone stole the idea of a MARD off you. I spent 3 years fiddling with mine. I think Booth told me he'd been toying with the idea for well over a decade. Certainly the opportunity for simultaneous discovery of the same idea exists. People fiddle and test things for many years before taking it to market. Some are implementations of very old ideas. Example: Soft Links... Patent protection is a well established system. If you feel that someone has infringed then please go ahead and sue them. Manufacturers have taken an obvious idea and implemented it in different ways. They may infringe they may not. If you could convince a court of this then you might have something. Otherwise maybe it would be beneficial to participate in the discussion. You could show some photos of what you developed and patented and show a comparison of how the peregerine system is the same or different. That would be a start. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #42 April 28, 2016 hackishEric, ....... Some are implementations of very old ideas. Example: Soft Links... ................ -Michael ............................................................................. For example: Charlie Broadwick made soft links back in 1914. Soft links were revived circa 1980 by some unknown rigger in Florida. In 1996, Parachutes de France invented re-usable soft-links. All subsequent soft links have been minor improvements on the Parachutes de France design. On the subject of patent law ..... patents are only gov't recognition of the inventor. Sadly, lawyers have distorted patent law to require inventors to launch exhaustive lawsuits to protect their intellectual property. There is not enough money in the parachute industry to fund patent-protection lawsuits. Lawyers have perverted tort law in much the same way to increase long-term damages (e.g. PTSD and starvation) many years (e.g. 8) after accidents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #43 April 28, 2016 Hi Rob, Quote There is not enough money in the parachute industry to fund patent-protection lawsuits. Generally, I agree with everything that you say. However, you might ask Mike Furry if he agrees with your statement quoted above. Just after Steve Snyder won his lawsuit against Mike, I read that they were only $5.00 apart in negotiation settlement discussions; neither would budge any further so they went to court. Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #44 April 28, 2016 Agreed. Mike Furry lost a lot of money in that lawsuit. Going to court is gamble. Even experienced lawyers have difficulty predicting judges' decisions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hajnalka 0 #45 January 24, 2017 Quote Anyway, I should try downloading that ACE [& Peregrine] manual again. Now I know why the thing didn't seem to want to download or open, it is a freaking 830 MB or so...[Correction, that's the rig manual, not the ACE one. Downloads keep failing.] Good luck with that. Their website either works, or it doesn't. Mainly for me it doesn't, especially when I have a Glide customer sitting here in front of me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #46 January 27, 2017 Looks like it works great,,,but the music sucks,,too annoying,,,a calm voice over explanation of the system would have been better,,,as it is it sounds like a nite club,,,lol. good luck ! smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
