Arguments for (or against) the existence of God

[Coreeece 2]

DanG

Quote

But then you want to have it both ways by taxing religious institutions that will ultimately only end up hurting legit smaller churches trying to mind their own business, while giving even MORE political clout to the loudmouth megachurches.

That is some amazingly twisted logic.

How so? It would hurt smaller churches and it would give megachurches more political clout. Right now, churches can't lobby - so we have all these religious lobbyist organizations that need to be set up in order to lobby - and the only way they get to lobby is if the money they receive to lobby is taxed. Taxing churches would then give them a right to a political voice and just open the floodgates without having to go through a "lobbyist loophole."

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[billvon 2,395]

>They should be treated as any other tax exempt non-profit organization under which
>they qualify.

Agreed! So you would support removing the religious tax exemption and replacing it with the same exemptions available to any other nonprofit? If so, then I agree with your approach; that would solve a lot of problems.

[rehmwa 2]

billvon

>They should be treated as any other tax exempt non-profit organization under which
>they qualify.

Agreed! So you would support removing the religious tax exemption and replacing it with the same exemptions available to any other nonprofit? If so, then I agree with your approach; that would solve a lot of problems.

yes, this ^, provided they are operating solely as a charitable organization and not for any other purpose

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Coreeece 2]

billvon

>They should be treated as any other tax exempt non-profit organization under which
>they qualify.

Agreed! So you would support removing the religious tax exemption and replacing it with the same exemptions available to any other nonprofit? If so, then I agree with your approach; that would solve a lot of problems.

I suppose that might work. My main concern is with protecting smaller churches that might not be able to afford a tax, especially since they aren't forcing a charge for their services - which isn't always the case with "any other" nonprofit.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[billvon 2,395]

> My main concern is with protecting smaller churches that might not be able to afford
>a tax, especially since they aren't forcing a charge for their services . . .

Shouldn't be a problem for nonprofits. The laws on nonprofits are pretty reasonable, and most small churches already meet the definitions - thus they wouldn't have to pay those taxes. The churches that will run into trouble will tend to be larger churches that send money back to their parent organization and/or allow the founders/investors to keep equity in the church.

[ryoder 1,381]

billvon

>They should be treated as any other tax exempt non-profit organization under which
>they qualify.

Agreed! So you would support removing the religious tax exemption and replacing it with the same exemptions available to any other nonprofit? If so, then I agree with your approach; that would solve a lot of problems.

I can see this having a damping effect on the sales of boats, jets, and mansions.


Exemption Requirements - 501(c)(3) Organizations

To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.

Source: https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/exemption-requirements-section-501-c-3-organizations


Intermediate sanctions - excess benefit transactions

An excess benefit transaction is a transaction in which an economic benefit is provided by an applicable tax-exempt organization, directly or indirectly, to or for the use of a disqualified person, and the value of the economic benefit provided by the organization exceeds the value of the consideration received by the organization.

To determine if an excess benefit transaction occurred, include all consideration and benefits exchanged between or among the disqualified person and the applicable tax-exempt organization and all entities it controls.

In addition, if a supporting organization makes a grant, loan, payment of compensation, or similar payment to a substantial contributor of the organization, the arrangement is an excess benefit transaction. The entire amount of the payment is taxable as an excess benefit.

In an excess benefit transaction, the general rule for the valuation of property, including the right to use property, is fair market value. Fair market value is the price at which property, or the right to use property, would change hands between a willing buyer and a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy, sell, or transfer property or the right to use property, and both having reasonable knowledge of all relevant facts.

An excess benefit can occur in an exchange of compensation and other compensatory benefits in return for the services of a disqualified person, or in an exchange of property between a disqualified person and the applicable tax-exempt organization.

Source: https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/intermediate-sanctions-excess-benefit-transactions

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[DanG 1]

Quote

How so? It would hurt smaller churches and it would give megachurches more political clout. Right now, churches can't lobby - so we have all these religious lobbyist organizations that need to be set up in order to lobby - and the only way they get to lobby is if the money they receive to lobby is taxed. Taxing churches would then give them a right to a political voice and just open the floodgates without having to go through a "lobbyist loophole."

I don't understand your position at all. You say right now that megachurches can lobby for political reform by setting up taxable organizations. How would that change if the church itself were taxed? They wouldn't have to bother setting up a shell corporation. Big whoop. How does that hurt the small churches? Right now, according to you, they can't lobby at all. If they were taxed, they could lobby just like the big churches. Your reasoning doesn't make sense.

- Dan G

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

The thread has taken a crappy downturn - I'm seeing the 'faithful' types here (generally) acknowledging simply that they 'believe' what they believe and also not offering it as 'proof' of any kind.

yet still people keeping sharpening sticks and poking them

As always, you see what you want to see.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jcd11235 0]

wolfriverjoe

******I think it implies that we have a predisposition toward faith.

But it does not imply that religion offers any beneficial value.

Actually, it does.

The idea that there is this omnipotent, untouchable being who metes out punishment and rewards for behavior is a big benefit.

If a King or other ruler becomes unpopular, there is a revolt. Which pretty much destroys the society.
But, while revolting against religious authorities isn't unknown, it's far less common. And the idea of revolting against God is impossible.

So the society believes that they have to do certain things or "God will punish them." Things like not stealing from each other, not killing each other (within the group), leaving the other guys' mates alone, that sort of thing. Stuff that is normal human nature, but bad for the society.

Religious prohibitions on this sort of behavior was probably vital for humans to move anywhere beyond tribal groups.

Rewards for behaviors that don't benefit the individual, yet are important for society to flourish are also an important effect of this. Tithing/taxation is one example.

That doesn't change the existence/non-existence of God in any way. Just addressing the evolved tendency for people to believe in a God.

I agree that a common belief that allows a loose group to coalesce for cooperative purposes has been beneficial. But it is the cooperation, not the religion, that provides value.

I think our disagreement is largely semantics.

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[rehmwa 2]

jakee

Quote

The thread has taken a crappy downturn - I'm seeing the 'faithful' types here (generally) acknowledging simply that they 'believe' what they believe and also not offering it as 'proof' of any kind.

yet still people keeping sharpening sticks and poking them

As always, you see what you want to see.

I got nothing invested here for either side of the discussion. But you keep thinking that.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

draw your line anywhere you like, but 1 in 4 is not 'grossly outnumbered' (or 60/40) - especially if you group everyone else into the 'other' category, which is disingenuous also.....it's not like the Buddists and the Muslims and the Christians and the Hindus are all getting together and plotting against those darn atheists and agnostics - they tend to fight each other (after they are done fighting themselves...)

What has that got do do with it? How disingenuous of you is it to talk about different religions plotting against atheists, when you should know that has fuck all to do with what was being claimed?The claim was that there was a stigma against faith.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jcd11235 0]

RonD1120

Are you smart enough to know when you need a lawyer, a doctor or a mechanic? You think if a person is having difficulty with life they should just die and get out of the way.

Can you provide examples of when a person going through difficulties is better off by being victimized by confidence artists?

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[jakee 1,254]

rehmwa

I got nothing invested here for either side of the discussion. But you keep thinking that.

Doesn't matter what you have invested. You made up your mind along time ago about how you view any religious debate wrt who the antagonists are and it really doesn't matter what's being said, you'll see it through the same prism regardless.

Hell, you even trotted out your 'stupid atheists believe in karma' strawman last week, which is beyond absurd.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jcd11235 0]

Coreeece

It's really no different than any other type of bigotry against people for the way they were born and choose to live their lives - why do you think we have record rates of homosexuals?

Don't conflate being born a certain way and choosing to live a certain way. Being religious is always a choice; we're all born atheists. There's a big difference. Some people (and a members of a multitude of other species) are also born homosexual.

And the "record rates" are most likely due to people being more inclined to come out of the closet, in some cases, even to themselves.

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[jcd11235 0]

rehmwa

I guess the 'crappy downturn' was the point that people keep poking at them even though they aren't offering argument at this point, just a difference of opinion.

That you predictably ignore arguments inconsistent with your own preconceived notions in no way implies cogent arguments have not been presented.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

Coreeece

Right now, churches can't ministers illegally lobby from the pulpit.

Fixed that for you.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 2,395]

>Can you provide examples of when a person going through difficulties is better off by
>being victimized by confidence artists?

In the movie The Rat Race, six people are victimized by confidence men. In the end they all get to go to a Smash Mouth concert.

[jcd11235 0]

billvon

>Can you provide examples of when a person going through difficulties is better off by
>being victimized by confidence artists?

In the movie The Rat Race, six people are victimized by confidence men. In the end they all get to go to a Smash Mouth concert.

Well I'll be damned (so to speak).

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kallend 1,623]

rehmwa

******
Lo dude that's fucking hilarious. There isn't a nation on earth where people of faith don't grossly outnumber people of no faith

So your statement is true now, but could change in the not-so-distant future.

depends on what you consider "Grossly outnumbers"



Outnumbers by 144 or more.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ryoder 1,381]

kallend

Outnumbers by 144 or more.

Thanks!

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[rehmwa 2]

kallend

Outnumbers by 144 or more.

clearly the most consistent and cogent post of the last few pages of this thread

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[RonD1120 58]

jcd11235

***Are you smart enough to know when you need a lawyer, a doctor or a mechanic? You think if a person is having difficulty with life they should just die and get out of the way.

Can you provide examples of when a person going through difficulties is better off by being victimized by confidence artists?

My best example is when I was stranded in the Sierra Nevada Mountains and I called out to the Lord and experienced His salvation. Two years later I asked for the baptism of the Holy Spirit and received it. Subsequently, within a few days, I was delivered from the desire to use mood altering substances. It was just me and the Lord.

That is called personal testimony. It is offered as an example to those in dire need. It is the path to hope where none exists.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jcd11235 0]

RonD1120

That is called personal testimony. It is offered as an example to those in dire need. It is the path to hope where none exists.

That would suggest you as the confidence artist exploiting those in need.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[RonD1120 58]

jcd11235

***That is called personal testimony. It is offered as an example to those in dire need. It is the path to hope where none exists.

That would suggest you as the confidence artist exploiting those in need.

Except that I have nothing to gain. A con man seeks gain.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[gowlerk 1,905]

Those who believe will generally cite personal experience and the testimony of a "prophet". Whether the prophet is Jesus, Mohamed, Moses, Jim Jones, Joseph Smith, Charles Manson, or Ron L Hubbard they all have one thing in common. They are all lies made up by humans. The motivations for the lies may be different, and the prophets themselves may even have believed their own lies. But they are all lies and falsehoods nonetheless. There is no reason other than your personal need to believe any of them.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.