Arguments for (or against) the existence of God

[jcd11235 0]

Coreeece

It's interesting how you reject science when it doesn't fit your narrative.

Nonsense. I'm not rejecting science at all.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Coreeece 2]

Yes I believe Christ is the way, but remember I didn't always believe, and have entertained other religions before finally identifying with Christ. I would never judge the eternal condition of another - especially when I don't know where they're at in their spiritual journey or how Christ has revealed Himself to them.

...now what does any of this have to do the video that you didn't watch?

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

jcd11235

***It's interesting how you reject science when it doesn't fit your narrative.

Nonsense. I'm not rejecting science at all.

Then you agree that belief in God is somehow related to evolution, either directly or indirectly?

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[jcd11235 0]

Coreeece

Then you agree that belief in God is somehow related to evolution, either directly or indirectly?

I suspect you're misconstruing the science.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Coreeece 2]

jcd11235

***Then you agree that belief in God is somehow related to evolution, either directly or indirectly?

I suspect you're misconstruing the science.

I suspect you're not even familiar with the science.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[jcd11235 0]

Coreeece

******Then you agree that belief in God is somehow related to evolution, either directly or indirectly?

I suspect you're misconstruing the science.

I suspect you're not even familiar with the science.

I've read about the research to which I think you're referring. Like I said, I don't think it implies what you believe it implies.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[normiss 622]

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
...Stephen F Roberts

[Coreeece 2]

jcd11235

*********Then you agree that belief in God is somehow related to evolution, either directly or indirectly?

I suspect you're misconstruing the science.

I suspect you're not even familiar with the science.

I've read about the research to which I think you're referring. Like I said, I don't think it implies what you believe it implies.

I think it implies that we have a predisposition toward faith.

What do you think it implies?

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

Quiet in the peanut gallery!

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Coreeece

************Then you agree that belief in God is somehow related to evolution, either directly or indirectly?

I suspect you're misconstruing the science.

I suspect you're not even familiar with the science.

I've read about the research to which I think you're referring. Like I said, I don't think it implies what you believe it implies.

I think it implies that we have a predisposition toward faith.

What do you think it implies?

Not exactly. It strongly implies that societies function better when there is an omnipotent "God" who can be used to reduce selfish behaviors that damage the society and increase ,altruistic behaviors which benefit it.
So that sort of belief is reinforced. And "selected" on an evolutionary scale.

Sort of like the fear of snakes is instinctive in some regions, and the fear of large predators is instinctive in others (ever see a kid that was afraid of dogs for no apparent reason?)

It has nothing to do with the actual existence or lack of of any God.

I find it rather telling that every society has a "creation story" and worships the God (or Gods) behind that creation.
Most often, this story was told "by God" to the "enlightened ones" in the society.

And as long as the societies are truly independent, the stories are totally different. The difference between Norse mythology/theology and Christianity are good example of independent creation stories.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are a good example of the derivative nature of societies that interact.

If God is real, then why did he tell each group a different story?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

What I am saying is that only those people who are smart enough to know they can't live without a relationship with the Christ become believers.

And yet the people who aren't smart enough to realise that stay alive...

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jcd11235 0]

Coreeece

I think it implies that we have a predisposition toward faith.

But it does not imply that religion offers any beneficial value.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

Well, I wouldn't expect you to see the value, but suffice it to say that belief in God is an inherent characteristic of human nature - an "evolutionary benefit" if you will. . .well, at least that's what the scientific community seems to be calling it.

I think you misunderstand. I'd say there are two evolutionary characteristics at play, curiosity and wanting to fit in.

Curiosity and the desire to understand things is what made us smart in the first place. Wanting to figure out how to do things, how to make things and to understand how things work. A consequence of that is that when there is no way to find out how or why a certain thing happens the desire can be satisfied by just making something up. Neolithic people had no way to find out how lightning happens, or what makes rain, or why there were different seasons but they really, really wanted to think they knew how and why those things happened - so they just invented an explanation. Still happens today any time there's a problem too difficult to be solved (or understood by anyone but a dedicated expert). It's where 'god of the gaps' comes from.

Then there's the desire to fit in. Humans survive better in groups, there's a benefit to belonging in a group, and one good way to get kicked out of a group is disagreeing with the beliefs of the rest.

So, belief in god is a side effect of certain evolutionary traits, not a hardwired one on its own.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[bgrozev 2]

Coreeece

***
***In other words, we're born this way. . .

We are all born atheists. We have to learn be brainwashed before believing in religion. It's no different from "teaching" children the Santa myth as though it is real.

I can understand why you would reject that concept. If you were to accept it, then your little analogies to Santa, leprechauns etc., just become irrelevant babble. It's interesting how you reject science when it doesn't fit your narrative.

Besides, this isn't necessarily about religion, but a general inherent belief - how you identify with God after that is another story.

I'd suspect that the majority of antagonists that mock belief in God would rather we ignore the scientific concept of innate faith, lest they be exposed as the intolerant, condescending bigots that they are.

You keep repeating this misconception. Do you honestly fail to understand the difference between belief in god and the existence of god? No one questions the fact that some people believe in god. Maybe human being are predisposed to believe in god. This says NOTHING about the existence of god.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

jcd11235

***I think it implies that we have a predisposition toward faith.

But it does not imply that religion offers any beneficial value.

Actually, it does.

The idea that there is this omnipotent, untouchable being who metes out punishment and rewards for behavior is a big benefit.

If a King or other ruler becomes unpopular, there is a revolt. Which pretty much destroys the society.
But, while revolting against religious authorities isn't unknown, it's far less common. And the idea of revolting against God is impossible.

So the society believes that they have to do certain things or "God will punish them." Things like not stealing from each other, not killing each other (within the group), leaving the other guys' mates alone, that sort of thing. Stuff that is normal human nature, but bad for the society.

Religious prohibitions on this sort of behavior was probably vital for humans to move anywhere beyond tribal groups.

Rewards for behaviors that don't benefit the individual, yet are important for society to flourish are also an important effect of this. Tithing/taxation is one example.

That doesn't change the existence/non-existence of God in any way. Just addressing the evolved tendency for people to believe in a God.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Coreeece 2]

wolfriverjoe

It has nothing to do with the actual existence or lack of of any God.

We talked about this a few moths ago in the zika thread found here. I expressed how it wasn't my intention to use this science as proof of God's existence. So I don't know if you're just making a general statement or trying to imply that I was suggesting that.

Personally, I don't need science to validate or prove God's existence in order to have faith in Him - I find the mere suggestion ridiculous as it subjects God to the limited conclusions of science as if he were so dependent and inferior to them.

For the most part, I've always believed that it was naturally within us to perceive the concept of God, then I read it in scripture, and now even science is suggesting that perhaps we're predisposed to faith for whatever reason. The causes for that don't really interest me as much as the predisposition itself.

wolfriverjoe

I find it rather telling that every society has a "creation story" and worships the God (or Gods) behind that creation.
Most often, this story was told "by God" to the "enlightened ones" in the society.

And as long as the societies are truly independent, the stories are totally different.

The point is that that's evidence that there is a predisposition - how you relate to God beyond that is another story altogether.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

jcd11235

***I think it implies that we have a predisposition toward faith.

But it does not imply that religion offers any beneficial value.

I think that's one of the questions the studies were trying to answer - whether it was a benefit or not, was it a direct adaptation or merely a byproduct, or was it just an evolutionary disaster?

Again, I'm more concerned with the reality of the predisposition itself - and while I understand that many religious people bring the ridicule on themselves, I'd hope to use this as a tool to promote tolerance/understanding.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

jakee

So, belief in god is a side effect of certain evolutionary traits, not a hardwired one on its own.

I appreciate your thoughts, and I get all that - which is why I initially asked jcd if he believed in the predisposition whether it was an indirect result or not.

I may have not expressed the idea accurately, but these studies say a lot and it's difficult to sum it all up in one quick sentence off the top of my head while jcd and I are going back and forth hit for hit.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

bgrozev

This says NOTHING about the existence of god.

Good, because I wasn't using it to say anything about the existence of God.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[gowlerk 1,904]

RonD1120

What I am saying is that only those people who are smart enough to know they can't live without a relationship with the Christ become believers. It is the complete surrender of self. It takes time to reach that level. It starts with admission of guilt and asking for forgiveness.

Your definition of who is smart is both ridiculous and offensive.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[ibx 2]

Quote

For the most part, I've always believed that it was naturally within us to perceive the concept of God, then I read it in scripture, and now even science is suggesting that perhaps we're predisposed to faith for whatever reason. The causes for that don't really interest me as much as the predisposition itself.

We are also predisposed to things like type 2 Diabetes and depression.
That doesn't mean they are intrinsically good or that they should be nurtured.
Education can help you reduce your risk in getting diabetes. You know, exercise and eating correctly.

Faith/belief in God can be avoided by the right education too, or why do you think all highly educated nations have record numbers of atheists? Their intrinsic will to believe in some superstition has been overcome by education just like their intrinsic will to eat lots of carbohydrates has been overcome by being taught to eat correctly.

Instead of seeing your inherent will to believe in some nonsense as proof of of something good, I see it as an evolutionary anachronism that can be overcome with education for the better of humanity.

[RonD1120 58]

I could not understand him.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

gowlerk

***What I am saying is that only those people who are smart enough to know they can't live without a relationship with the Christ become believers. It is the complete surrender of self. It takes time to reach that level. It starts with admission of guilt and asking for forgiveness.

Your definition of who is smart is both ridiculous and offensive.

Are you smart enough to know when you need a lawyer, a doctor or a mechanic? You think if a person is having difficulty with life they should just die and get out of the way. Is that compassionate progressive liberalism? I believe it is.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Coreeece 2]

ibx

Faith/belief in God can be avoided by the right education too, or why do you think all highly educated nations have record numbers of atheists?

I don't think it has as much to do with education as it does with the stigma that has been placed on faith. It's really no different than any other type of bigotry against people for the way they were born and choose to live their lives - why do you think we have record rates of homosexuals?

ibx

Instead of seeing your inherent will to believe in some nonsense as proof of of something good, I see it as an evolutionary anachronism that can be overcome with education for the better of humanity.

There are plenty of highly educated people that maintain their faith and have a net positive affect on society.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[DanG 1]

Quote

I don't think it has as much to do with education as it does with the stigma that has been placed on faith.

If you think the "stigma based on faith" is bad, you should try the stigma based on lack of faith.

- Dan G