billvon 2,384
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kallend 1,621
Quote>We are talking about a few "untrained" troops that were not following
>policy and/or the Geneva Conventions.
One such picture showed _eight_ troops in the frame. The ICRC has called the problem systematic:
"US President George W. Bush said the mistreatment 'was the wrongdoing of a few', but the report by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) backs up with detail the neutral agency's contention that US prisoner abuse was broad and part of a system, 'not individual acts'."
(link here )
It's a little more than "a few untrained troops."
The army's own investigator stated that the problem was systemic.
www.agonist.org/annex/taguba.htm
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Good thing too. Especially when you go to war wearing your "white hat" to liberate a population that didn't ask to be liberated.Quote
Their supervisor is responsible. Definitely a lack of supervision, I won't argue with you on that point.
Its unprecedented for the US to invade a sovereign nation that hasn't attacked or threatened it.
The troops ARE wonderful, but don't get taken in by the spin from the top.Quote
I must of missed it, but I didn't see anyone wearing a "white hat"? Invade is what SH did in 90'. Of course once again THEN as NOW the US is responding to help another country. Mission now of course, remove a ruthless murderer (SH), dispose of radical Islamic fundamentalist terrorist, (doing it), and protect the free world from tyranny. God help us....
I'm fairly level headed. I can make informed decisions now just like I did when I was in uniform for 23 years......thank you very much.
Buck
Quote
Its unprecedented for the US to invade a sovereign nation that hasn't attacked or threatened it.Quote
I can think of at least 2 such instances:
Panama (1989) - US invaded Panama to depose Manuel Noriega. Panama neither attacked or threatened US.
Grenada (1983) - US invaded Grenada to remove Marxist government. Grenada neither attacked or threatened US.
I'm sure there are others, but these 2 immediately leapt to mind.
QuoteQuote
Its unprecedented for the US to invade a sovereign nation that hasn't attacked or threatened it.Quote
I can think of at least 2 such instances:
Panama (1989) - US invaded Panama to depose Manuel Noriega. Panama neither attacked or threatened US.
Grenada (1983) - US invaded Grenada to remove Marxist government. Grenada neither attacked or threatened US.
I'm sure there are others, but these 2 immediately leapt to mind.
Did Vietnam attack us or threaten us?
QuoteQuoteQuote
Its unprecedented for the US to invade a sovereign nation that hasn't attacked or threatened it.Quote
I can think of at least 2 such instances:
Panama (1989) - US invaded Panama to depose Manuel Noriega. Panama neither attacked or threatened US.
Grenada (1983) - US invaded Grenada to remove Marxist government. Grenada neither attacked or threatened US.
I'm sure there are others, but these 2 immediately leapt to mind.
Did Vietnam attack us or threaten us?
I would argue no, but I didn't include it out of intellectual integrity. We didn't really invade. We just bombed the shit out them. Same goes for Cambodia and Loas. I was only including instances where we sought to overthrow a sovereign government, which I think was Kallend's attempted point (although I won't speak for him). Also we were in S. Vietnam at the request of the RVN government.
I guess you could also include Nicaragua where we used SF to train & arm the Contras (who overthrew the Sandanista government).
And the beat goes on ....
winsor 186
Quote
Its unprecedented for the US to invade a sovereign nation that hasn't attacked or threatened it.
Remember the Maine!
juanesky 0
Sandinistas were not overthrew. They later installed a democracy and the country elected Violeta de Chamorro as the first president.
"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon
billvon 2,384
>Remember the Maine!
And the Maddox! And we don't want Saddam using his nuclear weapons on us! I note a pattern developing.
And the Maddox! And we don't want Saddam using his nuclear weapons on us! I note a pattern developing.
kallend 1,621
QuoteQuote
Its unprecedented for the US to invade a sovereign nation that hasn't attacked or threatened it.
Remember the Maine!
My Bad!
Now you tell me the US has a history of unprovoked attacks on smaller countries.
And we have WMDs.
And we harbored terrorists.
Who will liberate us from this evil?
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
billvon 2,384
>Once you start down that road of violating civil rights it gets easier to
>take each next step.
Agreed. From Bush's 2003 SOTU:
"International human rights groups have catalogued other methods used in the torture chambers of Iraq: electric shock, burning with hot irons, dripping acid on the skin, mutilation with electric drills, cutting out tongues, and rape. If this is not evil, then evil has no meaning."
We are up to two of the six. I hope we stop before we start batting .500.
>take each next step.
Agreed. From Bush's 2003 SOTU:
"International human rights groups have catalogued other methods used in the torture chambers of Iraq: electric shock, burning with hot irons, dripping acid on the skin, mutilation with electric drills, cutting out tongues, and rape. If this is not evil, then evil has no meaning."
We are up to two of the six. I hope we stop before we start batting .500.
Quote>Once you start down that road of violating civil rights it gets easier to
>take each next step.
Agreed. From Bush's 2003 SOTU:
"International human rights groups have catalogued other methods used in the torture chambers of Iraq: electric shock, burning with hot irons, dripping acid on the skin, mutilation with electric drills, cutting out tongues, and rape. If this is not evil, then evil has no meaning."
We are up to two of the six. I hope we stop before we start batting .500.
Not hot irons, but...
From the ICRC report:
Quote17. During a visit of the ICRC in Camp Bucca on 22 September 2003, a 61-year old person deprived of his liberty alleged that he had been tied, hooded, and forced to sit on the hot surface of what he surmised to be the engine of a vehicle, which had caused severe burns to his buttocks. The victim had lost consciousness. The ICRC observed large crusted lesions consistent with his allegation.
18. The ICRC examined another person deprived of his liberty in the "High Value Detainees" section in October 2003 who had been subjected to a similar treatment. He had been hooded, handcuffed in the back, and made to lie face down, on a hot surface during transportation. This had caused severe skin burns that required three months hospitalization. At the time of the interview he had been recently discharged from hospital. He had to undergo several skin grafts, the amputation of his right index finger, and suffered the permanent loss of the use of his left fifth finger secondary to burn-induced skin retraction. He also suffered extensive burns over the abdomen, anterior aspects of the lower extremities, the palm of his right hand and the sole of his left foot. The ICRC recommended to the CF that the case be investigated to determine the cause and circumstances of the injuries and the authority responsible for the ill-treatment. At the time of writing the results of the report were still pending.
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
Tonto 1
From Bush's 2003 SOTU:
"International human rights groups have catalogued other methods used in the torture chambers of Iraq: electric shock, burning with hot irons, dripping acid on the skin, mutilation with electric drills, cutting out tongues, and rape. If this is not evil, then evil has no meaning."
OK, so that's 3 out of 6 in a year. How long was Saddam in power? And I still don't get the sex thing...
t
"International human rights groups have catalogued other methods used in the torture chambers of Iraq: electric shock, burning with hot irons, dripping acid on the skin, mutilation with electric drills, cutting out tongues, and rape. If this is not evil, then evil has no meaning."
OK, so that's 3 out of 6 in a year. How long was Saddam in power? And I still don't get the sex thing...
t
It's the year of the Pig.
Erroll 49
Quote
And I still don't get the sex thing...
t
In an attempt to answer, I'll give the US structures the benefit of the doubt in that the troops in question were 'softening up' the Iraqi prisoners for interrogation.
Being lead around naked on a leash by a woman must be one of the most humiliating things a Muslim man could experience. Similarly having a woman make fun of his exposed genitals. Rape, same-sex interaction (even simulation), sodomy - these are all very strictly forbidden, and as a result, extremely humiliating to a Muslim. Very effective as a 'softening up' tactic, in my opinion.
Tonto 1
QuoteQuote
And I still don't get the sex thing...
t
In an attempt to answer, I'll give the US structures the benefit of the doubt in that the troops in question were 'softening up' the Iraqi prisoners for interrogation.
Being lead around naked on a leash by a woman must be one of the most humiliating things a Muslim man could experience. Similarly having a woman make fun of his exposed genitals. Rape, same-sex interaction (even simulation), sodomy - these are all very strictly forbidden, and as a result, extremely humiliating to a Muslim. Very effective as a 'softening up' tactic, in my opinion.
OK - So if that's true, then these are not a few people out of control. They're following a doctrine given to them by someone.
The only question remaining, is why were the prisoners NEVER interogated? (Read the latest Time magazine Special report - they were never asked a single question.)
t
It's the year of the Pig.
Erroll 49
QuoteQuoteQuote
And I still don't get the sex thing...
t
In an attempt to answer, I'll give the US structures the benefit of the doubt in that the troops in question were 'softening up' the Iraqi prisoners for interrogation.
Being lead around naked on a leash by a woman must be one of the most humiliating things a Muslim man could experience. Similarly having a woman make fun of his exposed genitals. Rape, same-sex interaction (even simulation), sodomy - these are all very strictly forbidden, and as a result, extremely humiliating to a Muslim. Very effective as a 'softening up' tactic, in my opinion.
OK - So if that's true, then these are not a few people out of control. They're following a doctrine given to them by someone.
The only question remaining, is why were the prisoners NEVER interogated? (Read the latest Time magazine Special report - they were never asked a single question.)
t
I agree. That is why I said that in order to try and explain the 'sex thing', I would give them the benefit of the doubt.
I have personally not expressed an opinion on the issue, simply because I don't know enough. However, if pushed I would have to say I think this was a case of a small group of rogue elements messing up big time. If that is the case I believe that ultimately GWB and Rumsfeld must take responsibility, but the rogue elements and their immediate superiors should be held culpable and punished to the fullest extent of US military law.
Quote>Remember the Maine!
And the Maddox! And we don't want Saddam using his nuclear weapons on us! I note a pattern developing.
Would those be the same nuclear weapons John Kerry told us he had and "if we didn't believe he had them we should'nt vote for him"?
Are those the nuclear weapons you are talking about or some other ones?
QuoteAnd I still don't get the sex thing...
Well, rape is never about sex, per se, it's about power.
A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All
Tonto 1
Yeah... 
You're right there. One would think that having a big enough WMD arsenal to destroy the planet and the ability to invade a country on false/faulty intel would be power enough...
But no. One needs to sodomise some dude with a glowstick - without even asking him a single question...
t
You're right there. One would think that having a big enough WMD arsenal to destroy the planet and the ability to invade a country on false/faulty intel would be power enough...
But no. One needs to sodomise some dude with a glowstick - without even asking him a single question...
t
It's the year of the Pig.
Yep...It would seem that George Carlin has another quote for this (slightly corrupted quote):
"If you need training to know not to shove a large cumbersome object up someone's ass, maybe you're just too fucked up to be in the Military/on the police force.'
"If you need training to know not to shove a large cumbersome object up someone's ass, maybe you're just too fucked up to be in the Military/on the police force.'
billvon 2,384
>Are those the nuclear weapons you are talking about or some other ones?
I'm talking about the ones that meant that we could not "wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud," and thus we had to attack immediately. I don't know which ones Bush was referring to, but apparently they were a grave threat to the US - and Saddam had them.
I'm talking about the ones that meant that we could not "wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud," and thus we had to attack immediately. I don't know which ones Bush was referring to, but apparently they were a grave threat to the US - and Saddam had them.
>policy and/or the Geneva Conventions.
One such picture showed _eight_ troops in the frame. The ICRC has called the problem systematic:
"US President George W. Bush said the mistreatment 'was the wrongdoing of a few', but the report by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) backs up with detail the neutral agency's contention that US prisoner abuse was broad and part of a system, 'not individual acts'."
(link here )
It's a little more than "a few untrained troops."
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