Coming Soon? FAHRENHEIT 911

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

By: PATRICK SAURIOL
By: News Editor
Source: The New York Times, Micahel Moore.com

Documentary filmmaker Michael Moore (BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE) has been hit with an unexpected twist of fate: Walt Disney Pictures is refusing to allow its subsidary, Miramax Films, from distributing Moore's next picture, FAHRENHEIT 911, this summer.

Moore's documentary examines the roles that President Bush and the bin Laden family played in the days following the terrorist attacks committed against America on September 11, 2001. The day after 9/11, the bin Laden family members were flown out of the country thanks to a special order allowing them air travel while the remainder of the country's airports were shut down. FAHRENHEIT 911 also examines the close business ties between the Bush and bin Ladens prior to 9/11 and is critical of Bush's role in stopping terrorist activity.


Miramax is trying to work out an agreement with its parent company that would reverse Disney's decree but chances are slim to none of it being reversed.


In a letter posted on his website today, Moore says that the reason he was told of Disney's cold feet for FAHRENHEIT 911 had to due with possible financial repercurssions arising from the loss of tax breaks from the state of Florida in the wake of the release of the film. Florida's governor is Jeb Bush, brother of President Bush.


"There is much more to tell, but right now I am in the lab working on the print to take to the Cannes Film Festival next week (we have been chosen as one of the 18 films in competition)," writes Moore on his website. "I will tell you this: Some people may be afraid of this movie because of what it will show. But there's nothing they can do about it now because it's done, it's awesome, and if I have anything to say about it, you'll see it this summer -- because, after all, it is a free country."

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Darius11 12]

I think it is really sad how many of our freedoms we have lost since bush took office.
This is America Land of the FREE lets keep it that way.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[kallend 1,623]

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I think it is really sad how many of our freedoms we have lost since bush took office.
This is America Land of the FREE lets keep it that way.

And Disney is free to make whatever decisions it thinks appropriate.

That said, this action will generate so much negative publicity that Disney's action will almost certainly backfire.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gawain 0]

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I think it is really sad how many of our freedoms we have lost since bush took office.
This is America Land of the FREE lets keep it that way.

Considering that this action by Disney has nothing to do with Bush being in office, I don't see your logic.

I would like to ask again, to anyone that will answer, what specific freedoms or rights they've lost in the last four years?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Lindsey 0]

So... I'm guessing that this is what quade's thread was referring to also. But what exactly has happened that has Disney believing that they will take this financial hit as repercussion for releasing the film? If a financial penalty is a real threat, then of course there is a loss of freedom. If I watch the police shoot my friend for expressing a particular sentiment, you can be damn sure that I'll think twice before expressing the same sentiment. That is a loss of freedom. But since I am so out of the loop, if what i just said doesn't pertain, then just disregard everything I said

Peas~
Lindsey

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[billvon 2,395]

>If a financial penalty is a real threat, then of course there is a
>loss of freedom. If I watch the police shoot my friend for expressing
> a particular sentiment, you can be damn sure that I'll think twice
> before expressing the same sentiment. That is a loss of freedom.

Those are two different things. Shooting someone for saying something is completely unacceptable. But if you are a popular singer, and you say something stupid on stage - then you may lose your audience and therefore money. And I have no problem with that. Freedom goes both ways.

[kallend 1,623]

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I think it is really sad how many of our freedoms we have lost since bush took office.
This is America Land of the FREE lets keep it that way.

Considering that this action by Disney has nothing to do with Bush being in office, I don't see your logic.

I would like to ask again, to anyone that will answer, what specific freedoms or rights they've lost in the last four years?

I've lost the freedom to carry all sorts of things like nail files, screwdrivers.... on board a commercial flight. I've lost the freedom to build model airplanes with any type of control system I wish. I've lost the freedom to build a model rocket with a G33 motor in it (or anything bigger). I've lost the freedom to make a phone call knowing that my line won't be tapped by the Feds without probable cause. I've lost the freedom to take a piss during the last 30 minutes of a flight into DC. I've lost the freedom to fly my plane within 30 miles of the TFR around POTUS. I've lost the freedom to fly my plane without worrying that a TFR will be set up after my departure along my flight path and that I can be intercepted or shot down if I go there....

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Romericus 0]

I'm not 100% certian (and maybe I should wait until I am before posting. whatever), but I'm pretty sure it wasn't the bin Laden family that was flown out of here shortly after 9-11 on Dubya's orders. From what I remember, it was the royal family of Saudi Arabia.

I'm not a supporter of Bush Jr., but this is quite a big difference in implications....

[Lindsey 0]

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>If a financial penalty is a real threat, then of course there is a
>loss of freedom. If I watch the police shoot my friend for expressing
> a particular sentiment, you can be damn sure that I'll think twice
> before expressing the same sentiment. That is a loss of freedom.

Those are two different things. Shooting someone for saying something is completely unacceptable. But if you are a popular singer, and you say something stupid on stage - then you may lose your audience and therefore money. And I have no problem with that. Freedom goes both ways.

Neither do I if it's losing an audience....That's losing based on public's response and their unwillingness to support you. But if you lose a tax break because you spoke out against those in office, I see a BIG problem.

Peace~
Lindsey

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

I wonder if he spliced together unrelated scenes and quotes and speeches in this film, too (I sure as hell will not call any of his work "documentary") in order to deceive people's perceptions of how factual events played out. This technique of propaganda and mendacity is endemic in his other films, notably "Bowling for Columbine."

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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I've lost the freedom to carry all sorts of things like nail files, screwdrivers.... on board a commercial flight.

Yes, so have I, and it pisses me off to no end. I used to travel with a Spyderco Delica in my back pocket, but can't anymore. Now it "makes me look like a terrorist."

But are you saying that's BUSH'S fault, and that it wouldn't have happened if GORE had been president during the 9/11 attacks?! That's insane.

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I've lost the freedom to make a phone call knowing that my line won't be tapped by the Feds without probable cause.

Well before 9/11, all of your telephone conversations were analyzed by the feds. Who are you kidding?

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I've lost the freedom to fly my plane without worrying that a TFR will be set up after my departure along my flight path and that I can be intercepted or shot down if I go there....

These are real losses of freedom, and they affect me too, as a pilot. But what are you saying, that it's the fault of the Bush administration in particular? Do you really believe that a Democratic administration would not have done the exact same things?!

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[kallend 1,623]

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Quote

I've lost the freedom to carry all sorts of things like nail files, screwdrivers.... on board a commercial flight.

Yes, so have I, and it pisses me off to no end. I used to travel with a Spyderco Delica in my back pocket, but can't anymore. Now it "makes me look like a terrorist."

But are you saying that's BUSH'S fault, and that it wouldn't have happened if GORE had been president during the 9/11 attacks?! That's insane.

Quote

I've lost the freedom to make a phone call knowing that my line won't be tapped by the Feds without probable cause.

Well before 9/11, all of your telephone conversations were analyzed by the feds. Who are you kidding?

Quote

I've lost the freedom to fly my plane without worrying that a TFR will be set up after my departure along my flight path and that I can be intercepted or shot down if I go there....

These are real losses of freedom, and they affect me too, as a pilot. But what are you saying, that it's the fault of the Bush administration in particular? Do you really believe that a Democratic administration would not have done the exact same things?!

-

I just answered the question he posed. I didn't make any judgements, just the facts.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kmcguffee 0]

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I've lost the freedom to make a phone call knowing that my line won't be tapped by the Feds without probable cause.

Explain what authority allows this please.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[vmsfreaky1 0]

but I'm pretty sure it wasn't the bin Laden family that was flown out of here shortly after 9-11 on Dubya's orders.***

It most certainly was the bin Laden family.

[quade 3]

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I've lost the freedom to make a phone call knowing that my line won't be tapped by the Feds without probable cause.

***
Explain what authority allows this please.

Just a couple of articles on the subject can be found HERE

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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but I'm pretty sure it wasn't the bin Laden family that was flown out of here shortly after 9-11 on Dubya's orders.***

It most certainly was the bin Laden family.

Here is a thought that dawned on me - this may be how he wants to market the movie. Maybe Disney just had some issues about it, but if he makes a big stink then it will get more free press and end up on all the political talk shows.

On the other hand, I don't doubt that Jeb would find a way to get back at Disney for allowing someone to slur the family name, esp in an election year. Hell, Mayor Daley has been known to do the same thing to people that are outspoken against him...

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[kmcguffee 0]

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Just a couple of articles on the subject can be found HERE

All of the ones I looked at were concerning Pen Registers and Trap and Trace requirements. Neither one of those are "tapping" phones. You only get numbers called not conversations.

This is the language from the Patriot Act concerning intercepting oral communications:

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TITLE II--ENHANCED SURVEILLANCE PROCEDURES

SEC. 201. AUTHORITY TO INTERCEPT WIRE, ORAL, AND ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS RELATING TO TERRORISM.

Section 2516(1) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) by redesignating paragraph (p), as so redesignated by section 434(2) of the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 (Public Law 104-132; 110 Stat. 1274), as paragraph (r); and

(2) by inserting after paragraph (p), as so redesignated by section 201(3) of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (division C of Public Law 104-208; 110 Stat. 3009-565), the following new paragraph:

`(q) any criminal violation of section 229 (relating to chemical weapons); or sections 2332, 2332a, 2332b, 2332d, 2339A, or 2339B of this title (relating to terrorism); or'.

SEC. 202. AUTHORITY TO INTERCEPT WIRE, ORAL, AND ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS RELATING TO COMPUTER FRAUD AND ABUSE OFFENSES.

Section 2516(1)(c) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by striking `and section 1341 (relating to mail fraud),' and inserting `section 1341 (relating to mail fraud), a felony violation of section 1030 (relating to computer fraud and abuse),'.

I think you can see that these are just adding violations where interception of oral communications is allowed. There is no reduction in the amount of proof of criminal conduct required.

Here is a link to Section 2516(1) of Title 18 USC where it tells who may authorize a "wiretap": http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/2516.html. It says they may authorize a wiretap

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in conformity with section 2518 of this chapter

Here is a link to section 2518: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/2518.html where it gives the requirement for a wiretap as

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there is probable cause for belief that an individual is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a particular offense enumerated in section 2516 of this chapter;

(b)

there is probable cause for belief that particular communications concerning that offense will be obtained through such interception;

(c)

normal investigative procedures have been tried and have failed or reasonably appear to be unlikely to succeed if tried or to be too dangerous;

Pen registers and trap and traces have never required "probable cause" to obtain. The threshold was not lowered for wiretaps, only new violations added where wiretapping was available as a tool. People against the Patriot Act, for whatever reason, are deliberately loose with their language in order to scare people. A Pen Register nor a Trap and Trace intercept any communications but some people like to insinuate that they do in order to scare you.

Here is a link to the Patriot Act if you would care to read it:

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http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism/20011025_hr3162_usa_patriot_bill.html

It also makes it possible to conduct proceedings for International Terrorism suspects, located in the US, in the FISA court instead of open court. This does not apply to domestic terrorism suspects (IOW it wouldn't have applied to the Oklahoma City bombers but would have to the 9/11 Hijackers). There is no reduction in the threshold for wiretaps anywhere in the Patriot Act.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[kmcguffee 0]

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Here is a thought that dawned on me - this may be how he wants to market the movie.

I say we send his fat ass to Iraq and let him fight with the terrorists that he seems to love so much. That should get him some good publicity and give him a chance to really get back at Bush since he hates him so much.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[quade 3]

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I say we send his fat ass to Iraq and let him fight with the terrorists that he seems to love so much.

Where, in anything that he has said, does he say anything about -him- loving terrorists.

No.

I think his point is that -GWB- has a connection to the House of Saud, which in turn has a direct connection to OBL.

How this got turned around into -Moore- being a terrorist lover is -far- beyond my mental capability.

It's not as if it's a Zero Sum Game wherein if you dislike GWB then you must, by default, automatically like the terorrists.

That's simply ridiculous.

Then again, I guess I really shouldn't be surprised. A LOT of folks on this particular Forum can't seem to see any shades of grey when it comes to a LOT of topics.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Here is a thought that dawned on me - this may be how he wants to market the movie.

I say we send his fat ass to Iraq and let him fight with the terrorists that he seems to love so much. That should get him some good publicity and give him a chance to really get back at Bush since he hates him so much.

Um. That didn't make any sense to me. He loves the terrorists? Whatever. He thinks the Bush admin are a group of war criminals and he is against war so he should pick up a gun? huh?

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Gawain 0]

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No.

I think his point is that -GWB- has a connection to the House of Saud, which in turn has a direct connection to OBL.

How this got turned around into -Moore- being a terrorist lover is -far- beyond my mental capability

First, the Saudi connection to OBL is that OBL had his citizenship revoked and his family has turned their back on him. That's not all bad.

Second, Moore is using (rightfully so) the "success" of "Columbine" to leverage the creation of this film (it ain't no documentary anymore than "Bowling" was). The problem is that much of "Columbine's" success derived less from its accuracy and more from its "creative discretion" adding who-knows-what...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kmcguffee 0]

Quote

Then again, I guess I really shouldn't be surprised. A LOT of folks on this particular Forum can't seem to see any shades of grey when it comes to a LOT of topics.

And A LOT of folks are so blinded by this idiot's rhetoric that they can't call an idiot an idiot. Everyone seems to be scared to death to be accused of not being PC. Moore is a fat lazy slob who is doing nothing but presenting bullshit with no factual basis in order to make money. He is doing nothing for this country, he is trying to impede the US in stopping the terrorist threat, and he is offering no alternative solution. He is on the side of the terrorists whether he realizes it or not.

I'm assuming your inability to understand the Patriot Act is because of all of the grey you are seeing? No, it's because you are listening to idiots like Moore and the ACLU who don't take the terrorist threat seriously. They are willing to see the US fail, and possibly be destroyed, rather than see their liberal agendas left behind. It's pathetic and makes me disgusted. America has forgotten what it takes win a tough war. The terrorists haven't. Read about what they are willing to endure in order to have a chance to die trying to destroy America. Moore would be unfit to fight in their ranks. They would send him back if we tried to give him to them.

Now how about you write about the topic instead of attacking the writer's ability to see "shades of grey". Isn't that one of the forum rules?

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[Ron 7]

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I've lost the freedom to carry all sorts of things like nail files, screwdrivers.... on board a commercial flight.

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Yes, so have I, and it pisses me off to no end. I used to travel with a Spyderco Delica in my back pocket, but can't anymore. Now it "makes me look like a terrorist."

But are you saying that's BUSH'S fault, and that it wouldn't have happened if GORE had been president during the 9/11 attacks?! That's insane.


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In Reply To
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I've lost the freedom to make a phone call knowing that my line won't be tapped by the Feds without probable cause.

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Well before 9/11, all of your telephone conversations were analyzed by the feds. Who are you kidding?


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In Reply To
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I've lost the freedom to fly my plane without worrying that a TFR will be set up after my departure along my flight path and that I can be intercepted or shot down if I go there....

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These are real losses of freedom, and they affect me too, as a pilot. But what are you saying, that it's the fault of the Bush administration in particular? Do you really believe that a Democratic administration would not have done the exact same things?!

-

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I just answered the question he posed. I didn't make any judgements, just the facts.

OK so I'll ask...Do you think it would have been any different if anyone else had been in office?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

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this may be how he wants to market the movie. Maybe Disney just had some issues . . ., I don't doubt that Jeb would find a way to get back at Disney for

1 - Why wouldn't this also be a marketing ploy by BOTH MM and Disney. Disney isn't the most right wing business in the country.

2 - I see people slamming Jeb Bush all the time here. What exactly did he do other than be related to the President? If I remember the election, he pretty well did his most to separate himself to avoid the appearance of conflict of interest.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,121]

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First, the Saudi connection to OBL is that OBL had his citizenship revoked and his family has turned their back on him. That's not all bad.

Second, Moore is using (rightfully so) the "success" of "Columbine" to leverage the creation of this film (it ain't no documentary anymore than "Bowling" was). The problem is that much of "Columbine's" success derived less from its accuracy and more from its "creative discretion" adding who-knows-what...

But, don't you find it odd that Bush not only allowed, but made specific arrangements for OBL's family to leave the country?

Does that not raise some questions for you?