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gary350

Intellectual Output - Arab/Islamic vs. Jewish World

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Can't absolutely vouch for accuracy, but did check around to try to disprove and couldn't - any other verification/not is welcome.

Nobel Prizes are just one measure of intellectual output, but it is an interesting comparison. I've seen some conclusions drawn, but haven't thought it all out enough myself. Anyone else? Why is this so? Does it say something about religion/culture/society or are those Norwegians just biased?

ARAB/ISLAMIC NOBEL WINNERS
From a pool of 1.4 BILLION Muslims
20% of World's Population (2 out of every 10 people)

Literature
1988 - Najib Mahfooz
Peace
1978 - Anwar El-Sadat
1994 - Yasser Arafat
2003 - Shirin Ebadi
Chemistry
1990 - Elias James Corey (Arab Christian)
1999 - Ahmed Zewail
Physics
1979 - Abdus Salam
Medicine
1960 - Peter Brian Medawar (Arab Christian)
1998 - Ferid Mourad (Arab Christian)

JEWISH NOBEL WINNERS
From a pool of 14 million Jews
.2% of the World's Population (2 out of every 1,000 people)

Literature
1910 - Paul Heyse
1927 - Henri Bergson
1958 - Boris Pasternak
1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
1966 - Nelly Sachs
1976 - Saul Bellow
1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer
1981 - Elias Canetti
1987 - Joseph Brodsky
1991 - Nadine Gordimer
2002 - Imre Kertesz
World Peace
1911 - Alfred Fried
1911 - Tobias Asser
1968 - Rene Cassin
1973 - Henry Kissinger
1978 - Menachem Begin
1986 - Elie Wiesel
1994 - Shimon Peres
1994 - Yitzhak Rabin
1995 - Joseph Rotblat
Chemistry
1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
1906 - Henri Moissan
1910 - Otto Wallach
1915 - Richard Willstaetter
1918 - Fritz Haber
1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
1961 - Melvin Calvin
1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
1972 - William Howard Stein
1972 - C.B. Anfinsen
1977 - Ilya Prigogine
1979 - Herbert Charles Brown
1980 - Paul Berg
1980 - Walter Gilbert
1981 - Ronald Hoffmann
1982 - Aaron Klug
1985 - Herbert A. Hauptman
1985 - Jerome Karle
1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach
1988 - Robert Huber
1989 - Sidney Altman
1992 - Rudolph Marcus
1998 - Walter Kohn
2000 - Alan J. Heeger
Economics
1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson
1971 - Simon Kuznets
1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow
1973 - Wassily Leontief
1975 - Leonid Kantorovich
1976 - Milton Friedman
1978 - Herbert A. Simon
1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein
1985 - Franco Modigliani
1987 - Robert M. Solow
1990 - Harry Markowitz
1990 - Merton Miller
1992 - Gary Becker
1993 Rober Fogel
1994 - John Harsanyi
1994 - Reinhard Selten
1997 - Robert Merton
1997 - Myron Scholes
2001 - George Akerlof
2001 - Joseph Stiglitz
2002 - Daniel Kahneman
Medicine
1908 - Elie Metchnikoff
1908 - Paul Erlich
1914 - Robert Barany
1922 - Otto Meyerhof
1930 - Karl Landsteiner
1931 - Otto Warburg
1936 - Otto Loewi
1944 - Joseph Erlanger
1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser
1945 - Ernst Boris Chain
1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller
1950 - Tadeus Reichstein
1952 - Selman Abraham Waksman
1953 - Hans Krebs
1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann
1958 - Joshua Lederberg
1959 - Arthur Kornberg
1964 - Konrad Bloch
1965 - Francois Jacob
1965 - Andre Lwoff
1967 - George Wald
1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg
1969 - Salvador Luria
1970 - Julius Axelrod
1970 - Sir Bernard Katz
1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman
1975 - David Baltimore
1975 - Howard Martin Temin
1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
1977 - Rosalyn Sussman Yalow
1977 - Andrew V. Schally
1978 - Daniel Nathans
1980 - Baruj Benacerraf
1984 - Cesar Milstein
1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
1988 - Gertrude Elion
1989 - Harold Varmus
1991 - Erwin Neher
1991 - Bert Sakmann
1993 - Richard J. Roberts
1993 - Phillip Sharp
1994 - Alfred Gilman
1994 - Martin Rodbell
1995 - Edward B. Lewis
1997 - Stanley B. Prusiner
1998 - Robert F. Furchgott
2000 - Eric R. Kandel
2002 - Sydney Brenner
2002 - Robert H. Horvitz
Physics
1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
1921 - Albert Einstein
1922 - Niels Bohr
1925 - James Franck
1925 - Gustav Hertz
1943 - Gustav Stern
1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
1945 - Wolfgang Pauli
1952 - Felix Bloch
1954 - Max Born
1958 - Igor Tamm
1958 - Il'ja Mikhailovich
1958 - Igor Yevgenyevich
1959 - Emilio Segre
1960 - Donald A. Glaser
1961 - Robert Hofstadter
1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau
1963 - Eugene P. Wigner
1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman
1965 - Julian Schwinger
1967 - Hans Albrecht Bethe
1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
1971 - Dennis Gabor
1972 - Leon N. Cooper
1973 - Brian David Josephson
1975 - Benjamin Mottleson
1976 - Burton Richter
1978 - Arno Allan Penzias
1978 - Peter L Kapitza
1979 - Stephen Weinberg
1979 - Sheldon Glashow
1988 - Leon Lederman
1988 - Melvin Schwartz
1988 - Jack Steinberger
1990 - Jerome Friedman
1992 - Georges Charpak
1995 - Martin Perl
1995 - Frederick Reines
1996 - David M. Lee
1996 - Douglas D. Osheroff
1997 - Claude Cohen-Tannoudji
2000 - Zhores I. Alferov
2003 - Vitaly Ginsburg
2003 - Alexei Abrikosov

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i really dont like this post.

the smell of racism (even if to my favor in this example) , disturbs me.

one could say, the nobel prize comitee is controled by jews so thats why the list is as it is.

arabs are responsible for many good things, including the invention of zero in math, algebra (which is an arab word) and lots of poetry.

i'd delete this thread :|

O
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

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Nobel Prizes are just one measure of intellectual output, but it is an interesting comparison. I've seen some conclusions drawn, but haven't thought it all out enough myself. Anyone else? Why is this so? Does it say something about religion/culture/society or are those Norwegians just biased?



The middle east region is a civilization in decline and has been for over 300 years. The Nobel is indeed only one measurement, but you'll find that contributions in just about every sector of the "social" ladder are lacking.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

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123456789 - Arabic numerals. Maybe you prefer I, II, III, IV, etc. for doing arithmetic.

Aldebaran, Rigel, ... (names of most of the stars visible to the naked eye) - named by Arabic astronomers

Algebra - Arabic invention
Algorithm - named for Arabic mathematician

Just some of the "A" entries, I could go on.

Of course, they weren't giving out Nobels back then.

The list you cite is stupid and irrelevant.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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i really dont like this post.

the smell of racism (even if to my favor in this example) , disturbs me.

one could say, the nobel prize comitee is controled by jews so thats why the list is as it is.

arabs are responsible for many good things, including the invention of zero in math, algebra (which is an arab word) and lots of poetry.

i'd delete this thread :|

O



So, because you're disturbed by some facts, without any conclusions, you would censor them?

The charge of even a hint of racism is absurd. Nobody claims they are an inferior people. Any slightly educated person knows that for hundreds of years the Arab/Islamic world was a center for art and science.

But the fact is that things are very different now - you would be hard pressed to find anyone, even in the Arab world, that will disagree. And I am interested in why. This issue is about religion, culture, and society and the effects on intellectual output. There are many, many more examples than the Nobel Prize statistics. . .

Read this article about science in the Arab world:
http://chronicle.com/free/v50/i26/26a03601.htm

Last October the United Nations' Development Program and the Kuwait-based Arab Fund for Social and Economic Development released a study showing how dire the situation is. Among the findings:

No Arab country spends more than 0.2 percent of its gross national product on scientific research, and most of that money goes toward salaries. By contrast, the United States spends more than 10 times that amount.

Fewer than one in 20 Arab university students pursue scientific disciplines.

There are only 18 computers per 1,000 people in the Arab world. The global average is 78 per 1,000.

Only 370 industrial patents were issued to people in Arab countries between 1980 and 2000. In South Korea during that same period, 16,000 industrial patents were issued.

No more than 10,000 books were translated into Arabic over the entire past millennium, equivalent to the number translated into Spanish each year.

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the smell of racism (even if to my favor in this example) , disturbs me.



What's the parallel term to 'racism' for religious bias? Is there one?

Get over it. This list is just info. The bias would be the reader's.

I think the list is rather pointless personally, but it certainly doesn't disurb nor excite me, I'm rather bland about it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Any slightly educated person knows that for hundreds of years the Arab/Islamic world was a center for art and science.



i'm not so sure Any slightly educated person knows that. the noble prize statistics are a fact, and so is the fact that the arab world is not at its peak (in this sense) at the moment.

i think you should have mentioned this in the post, and also why compare it to jewish people?
those jewish people are from all over the world and i would guess it has more to do with their education there and less with them being jewish.

O
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

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Just some of the "A" entries, I could go on.

Duh. . .

Quote

The list you cite is stupid and irrelevant.


Only if the goal was to show they are an inferior people, which it is not. I am interested in what is going on today and in the last couple hundred years and why - seems like Nobel awards are, as said, one measure of intellectual output in the last 100 years or so. There are many, many others - please see previous post/link regarding science.

Never expected such knee-jerking from you, Professor

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Since the Nobel prizes are a recent and have generally been awareded based on somewhat Europe/American-centric criteria, I would expect there to be a small representation of Arabs, who have not participated in that world as much as has, say, Europe or the US.

I'll bet they are lousy baseball players, too.:P

I think I'd like to echo Michele's question, why did you post this?

Wendy W.
(edited to add tongue-in-cheek -- thanks Bill!)
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Hey you forgot 0, they tried to hide it from the crusaders but couldn't. How about medicine too. While european died form the plague, they had extensive hospitals and public health. Not to mention some were practicing C sections. Arabic world also presereved lots of the Roman and Greek literature and culture which wouldve been lost w/o them.

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I'll bet they are lousy baseball players, too.



Look out Wendy - the PC police are converging on you for that one. :S

no one is safe

(I saw the tongue in check format - nice sarcasm)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Gary, sincere question.

What is the purpose of the thread?

Ciels-
Michele



Gotta go. Quick response:

I think societies/cultures based on (any) religious fundamentalism and totalitarianism are bad for human progress.

Curious as to why the same people who produced so much in the recent past now seem to contribute so little. Their capacity as humans is no different - it must be conditions(?)

Open to the idea that it is a perception thing, and willing to listen closely to any arguments. Asking questions, not making conclusions, though I admit the facts are provocative. . .

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Curious as to why the same people who produced so much in the recent past now seem to contribute so little. Their capacity as humans is no different - it must be conditions(?)



It's been centuries and unfortunately, conditions have affected the condition of the human spirit IMO.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

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Curious as to why the same people who produced so much in the recent past now seem to contribute so little. Their capacity as humans is no different - it must be conditions(?)


Ah. Now I getcha.

Thanks for clarifying that.

I have no answer ready...and I gotta go now, too. Who knows...perhaps I'll noodle it while I'm working, and come up with something. If I do, I'll post later.

Ciels-
Michele


~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

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Hey you forgot 0, they tried to hide it from the crusaders but couldn't. How about medicine too. While european died form the plague, they had extensive hospitals and public health. Not to mention some were practicing C sections. Arabic world also presereved lots of the Roman and Greek literature and culture which wouldve been lost w/o them.



Mea culpa. The invention of zero was a major milestone in mathematics.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Gary, sincere question.

What is the purpose of the thread?

Ciels-
Michele



Gotta go. Quick response:

I think societies/cultures based on (any) religious fundamentalism and totalitarianism are bad for human progress.

Curious as to why the same people who produced so much in the recent past now seem to contribute so little. Their capacity as humans is no different - it must be conditions(?)

Open to the idea that it is a perception thing, and willing to listen closely to any arguments. Asking questions, not making conclusions, though I admit the facts are provocative. . .



Well, the decline in Arabic output seems roughly coincident with their subjugation by the Ottomans. And after the Ottomans came the British and French.

One might venture that occupation by a foreign power is never good for any society.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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so why compare it to the "jewish world" ?

a nation spreads all over the world with different languages cultures education levels and lifestyles...



That's a very good question - I don't know why - It is one of the questions I had when I first saw this. Again - I didn't post to make conclusions, but to ask questions. It's called curiosity.

One question is if there may be differences in religious beliefs and practices (regardless of country, ethnic culture, language. . . .) that correlate somehow to an openness and curiosity that leads to greater intellectual curiosity and output.

Doesn't seem incredibly likely, since Islam was also the religion when Arabs were doing much better. I think it has more to do with fundamentalism and repressive societies.

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