mcordell 2 #1 January 4, 2016 On January 2nd 2016 Parachute Systems was notified by a dealer in Holland that a defect was found in the base ring on a Vortex container manufactured in October of 2014. Although the container was over a year old this was the container's 4th jump. The hardware was manufactured by and sold to Parachute Systems by Daesung Forge (DSF). Out of an abundance of caution and with the safety of each customer in mind, Parachute systems has recommended grounding Vortex containers with DSF hardware until such time as the extent of the issue can be determined. Once that has been determined, a list of affected serial numbers will be provided. Stainless steel hardware can be identified by flipping over the base ring and looking at the back. Rings affected by the bulletin will be stamped DSF. It is unknown at this time if any other containers will be affected by the issue or if this was a one-off flaw and Parachute Systems is working with the manufacturer currently to make that determination. Again, the affected rig was manufactured in October of 2014 and there have been no other reports of faulty rings. As information is provided I will update everyone. I also do not know what other manufacturers have purchased hardware from DSF that could be affected if this is a batch issue. It is important to note that containers currently in production and all future orders are NOT subject to this bulletin. If a batch of containers is identified as having quality concerns the issue will be repaired/resolved at the expense of Parachute Systems. If you have any questions about this please feel free to contact me and I will address your questions as best I can at this time.www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #2 January 4, 2016 [inline vortex.jpg] ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 275 #3 January 4, 2016 Oh goody, didn't know we were into East Asian hardware now, for gear sold in the States. That's not some generic rant against foreigners; I'm saying that more in the sense of, "Great, another company to keep track of...", because every time there's a new company in the gear business, they may be an increased risk of issues early on. (Disclaimer: That's not to say that there haven't been problems with hardware built or sold by US companies like Capewell or RWS or Wings or RI etc. And Daesung Forge apparently already make hardware for paragliding (which South Korea has experience with) and stuff typical of US style military gear (eg, Capewell releases)). QuoteIt is important to note that containers currently in production and all future orders are NOT subject to this bulletin. Given that rigs with DSF rings are grounded, therefore current production is not using DSF rings. Too bad the bulletin didn't say what date range was involved. It would help when notifying rigging customers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #4 January 4, 2016 pchapman Too bad the bulletin didn't say what date range was involved. It would help when notifying rigging customers. That's because Parachute Systems is working with the manufacturer to determine if this issue is a one-off or if it's a batch problem. If it's a batch problem then a date range and/or serial number range will be released, however that information isn't known at this time. They issued the service bulletin before having that data to be extra cautious. The greatest likelihood is that this is an issue with a batch of rings or is a one-off quality issue. That's probably the case considering this rig was manufactured over a year ago and there are no other reports of ring issues. Most of the rigs manufactured that long ago have been jumped quite a bit more than this rig and it stands to reason if this were a large scale issue we would have seen more reports. That is of course speculation based on deductive reasoning and is by no means a statement of fact. I will definitely let everyone know when I get an update.www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 275 #5 January 4, 2016 No problem. I do expect the bulletin will get revised once more is known. But if all rigs with DSF rings are grounded, then there is a date range for those rigs that are grounded. (I have known where other companies never bothered to issue a bulletin, just handling a few isolated problems on a case by case basis. I remember that from a couple bent harness rings. So it is good that PS did issue a bulletin quickly.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 136 #6 January 5, 2016 Why do you insist on the date ? They say in the SB that the stainless hardware us stamped DSF. I understand that the non stainless hardware comes from another manufacturer (or has another identification). They also mentioned that at the moment all DSF marked rigs are grounded and that they will quickly narrow it down.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidlizard 0 #7 January 5, 2016 Ok, I got Vortex DOM 9/2014 with DSF rings and about 150 jumps on it, it still not broken. So what is the perspective? Could be only the rings replaced? Or the whole harness i.e the whole container should be replaced? Actually, I'm pretty angry. I was convinced to buy this gear instead of buying a container from local manufacturers because it's TSO-ed and then got three bulletins in a year, and the last bulletin seems to be problematic to fix. Very nice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spokkie 0 #8 January 5, 2016 voidlizard Ok, I got Vortex DOM 9/2014 with DSF rings and about 150 jumps on it, it still not broken. So what is the perspective? Could be only the rings replaced? Or the whole harness i.e the whole container should be replaced? Actually, I'm pretty angry. I was convinced to buy this gear instead of buying a container from local manufacturers because it's TSO-ed and then got three bulletins in a year, and the last bulletin seems to be problematic to fix. Very nice. There was only the RSL lanyard notice last year with the bar-tacking and then this one. The other notice that went out last year was for the UPT spectra ripcords on skyhook rigs. I'm sure they will address the issue in a way that is satisfactory to all customers as soon as more details are available on affected rigs. Just to add I have a DOM 11/2014 Vortex with about 180 jumps on it also with DSF hardware and no damage on it checked every piece of hardware on my rig.Fly Your Soul, Free Your Mind! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DvK 2 #9 January 5, 2016 voidlizard Ok, I got Vortex DOM 9/2014 with DSF rings and about 150 jumps on it, it still not broken. So what is the perspective? Could be only the rings replaced? Or the whole harness i.e the whole container should be replaced? Actually, I'm pretty angry. I was convinced to buy this gear instead of buying a container from local manufacturers because it's TSO-ed and then got three bulletins in a year, and the last bulletin seems to be problematic to fix. Very nice. Why would you get angry? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MonsterMo 0 #10 January 5, 2016 DvK*** Ok, I got Vortex DOM 9/2014 with DSF rings and about 150 jumps on it, it still not broken. So what is the perspective? Could be only the rings replaced? Or the whole harness i.e the whole container should be replaced? Actually, I'm pretty angry. I was convinced to buy this gear instead of buying a container from local manufacturers because it's TSO-ed and then got three bulletins in a year, and the last bulletin seems to be problematic to fix. Very nice. Why would you get angry? I can see where he's coming from. I presume the other container (s)he's talking about is the SWS Fire - non TSOd, but seems to work quite well. This is the second SB issued since September in the Vortex. I too bought a new Vortex dom Apr / May 2014.Was the cheapest TSOd container I could buy (£1350 with all options, Skyhook wasn't offered until a few months later). Delivery times were really good at ~6 weeks. My rig wasn't affected by the previous SB (older RSL system attached to the left riser), but it did cause a bit of an over-reaction at my home DZ as I'm one of the few people that jumps a Vortex. Ironically, I was considering going out to the Algarve for new year's - kinda glad I didn't now. Wouldn't have been too happy with a grounded rig. What I will say is since June '14 I've put around 140 jumps on mine and all seems well. Does have the DSF hardware - it is currently with my rigger waiting to be picked up following a reserve repack. Guess I'll hold out till this is updated Look forward to hearing about any developments. Ash Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidlizard 0 #11 January 5, 2016 QuoteWhy would you get angry? May be because I've wasted some time fixing issue with the risers this summer and finally I'm grounded for unknown time right now? When many people around jump without any issues with much cheaper rigs from the local manufacturers. The truth is that if this problem is not fixable, I have to order a new container right now if I want to have a rig at the new season. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #12 January 5, 2016 voidlizardQuoteWhy would you get angry? May be because I've wasted some time fixing issue with the risers this summer and finally I'm grounded for unknown time right now? When many people around jump without any issues with much cheaper rigs from the local manufacturers. The truth is that if this problem is not fixable, I have to order a new container right now if I want to have a rig at the new season. I guess you missed the part where I wrote if the hardware on your rig is affected, the repairs would be made at Parachute Systems expense. Kind of hard to be upset with that. They did not manufacture this component. Out of the 3 service bulletins you referred to, 2 of them were for components they didn't manufacture and o e of those components came from UPT. Every rig manufacturer issues service bulletins from time to time. It's difficult to fault the company when there's an issue with a 3rd party piece of hardware.www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidlizard 0 #13 January 5, 2016 QuoteI guess you missed the part where I wrote if the hardware on your rig is affected, the repairs would be made at Parachute Systems expense. Kind of hard to be upset with that. They did not manufacture this component. Yes, I hope for that. The issue is the time. As far as I understand there is no chance to make it clear what D-rings are defective. So there are only two options: postpone the issue or replace all DSF parts on all sold rigs that should take... I don't know - a half of year? Right now personally I think that if my hardware is not broken yet it probably means that it's ok. But it does not matter --- I will not be allowed to jump with the rig on those holidays. Thus if I want to have a functional container to May, I need to do start doing something right now. Sorry for an emotional reaction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 275 #14 January 5, 2016 piisfish Why do you insist on the date ? Oh, it's super easy for any OWNER to check, and word gets passed around faster these days. But as a RIGGER wanting to do a little extra for customers (like tell them their rig might be grounded), do I start messaging a customer who has a rig from 2013? From 2009? Only from 2014? No big deal in the end, and my rigging records in recent years are electronic and easily searchable for the few Vortex owners I pack for, but Parachute Systems could have provided some rough date range for which customers I should scare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deyan 36 #15 January 5, 2016 mcordellThey did not manufacture this component As a TSO holder they are responsible for everything that goes in their products. The early Vortex 2 were made with Wichard hardware. Some years ago PS started using DSF hardware. I don't know why they changed the supplier, but I'll put my money on "cheaper price". And this is how it goes! Cheers"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,260 #16 January 5, 2016 Hi Mike, QuoteI guess you missed the part where I wrote if the hardware on your rig is affected, the repairs would be made at Parachute Systems expense. IMO they are doing everything that they can at this time. I am very sure that they know little of why the part broke; that is a metalurgy problem, i.e., what processes were used in the manufacture of the part, etc. I've had the occasion to work on a number of failure analysis problems, back in my working engineer days, and it usually takes a rather long time to get to the root cause. And for Parachute Systems, they ( it would seem to me ) are at the mercy of their supplier. In the other thread about 'customer service' problems, this SB is a 'plus' for them as it shows that they are doing what they can at this time. Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #17 January 5, 2016 I know a bit more about the process than I can discuss publicly right now but I can assure you they are working VERY closely with the supplier to determine if there is a particular batch of hardware that is subject to a recall and are not just relying on information provided by the supplier in determining the data on the specific ring that broke. I can assure you they are doing the absolute best they can to come to a quick determination and resolution. We should know more tomorrow.www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #18 January 5, 2016 As to whether it is fixable... Remember when Booth had a hard wear problem. His answer was the bolt in ring. It would be a pain to replace them. It's almost a rebuild on the whole harness and unless they authorize some one else to do it, it will be a long way to ship the rig. Depending on how the rig is configured you might as well replace all the webbing rather then sewing through it again. If they gear up and pre make some of the parts they could do it pretty easy. But Booth bit the bullet and made a new ring rather then deal with it. Hay, you could upgrade to large rings! On another note. I've got mixed feelings about some of these over seas companies. It's cool that their are more players and that the industry is growing. What bothers me is that it's not growing here. How many people are their left in the US that make hard ware? Borden. Who makes webbing other then Bally? Who makes fabric other then Performance and they just got bought by some one. It seems to be working but... What does it say about industry here in the US. Do you realize what it's like trying to hire a seamstress. You'd better be ready to train her your self. The only one I could find that had any experience was 70. And forget finding a good mechanic. What I'm saying is that the industry it self is not really healthy. To be clear, I'm not saying that their are any problems in it. The guys at Borden are awesome. Louis that sell me my webbing at Bally is a god send. And Performance was easy to deal with. But manufacturing in this country is in decline and it's hurting us. Their isn't a sewing industry any more. And it's hard for us to exist in a vacuum. So think about things like this ring the next time some one tries to seduce you into buying webbing out of china or hard wear from Korea. It may be a little more expensive but it may be worth it to deal with the company that's been doing this forever. And support your local suppliers otherwise you really wont have them some day. And any time you take a deal on some thing cheep from the other side of the world think about what it could cost you. I wonder how many harnesses they will have to rebuild? Could be just this one. Or it could bankrupt them. I learned a long time ago not to fuck around. Buy the best shit you can, right from the source. That's why I get my webbing from Bally, not on Ebay. End of rant. LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spokkie 0 #19 January 5, 2016 Deyan***They did not manufacture this component I don't know why they changed the supplier, but I'll put my money on "cheaper price". And this is how it goes! I would bet to say it has more to do with lead time and availability than with price. Just my 2 cents.Fly Your Soul, Free Your Mind! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deyan 36 #20 January 5, 2016 SpokkieI would bet to say it has more to do with lead time and availability than with price. Just my 2 cents. I'm not in their kitchen so I don't know. Perhaps you know more. But the fact that Vortex 2 is the cheapest TSO'd rig out there and they are the only one (to my knowledge) to use this hardware, makes me think the cheapest price was the leading reason. Once again...It's just a guess!"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 98 #21 January 5, 2016 QuoteHay, you could upgrade to large rings! Some customers might reasonably prefer to go with the old replaceable large ring for now. I wonder if they could be made again, or how many of them are out there, somewhere, to be used.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #22 January 5, 2016 Quote Some customers might reasonably prefer to go with the old replaceable large ring for now. I wonder if they could be made again, or how many of them are out there, somewhere, to be used. Not many, but I know where to find 3 sets of the RW-6, large, separable 3-ringsDerek V Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 275 #23 January 6, 2016 I found one customer with a 2012 Vortex that has DSF rings stamped "11", presumably 2011, used for the hip rings too. So PS had been using the DSF hardware for a while. (And I'll join an armed militia if anyone wants to take my 4 precious RW-6 separable rings outta my hands!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 98 #24 January 6, 2016 Hooknswoop Quote Some customers might reasonably prefer to go with the old replaceable large ring for now. I wonder if they could be made again, or how many of them are out there, somewhere, to be used. Not many, but I know where to find 3 sets of the RW-6, large, separable 3-ringsDerek V They might be much more valuable than before! Seriously, even if just a very small number of rigs are affected, It is easy to see that using those separable rings could be attractive to someone not wanting to be grounded at the moment, and to allow the mfg time to spread out the proper replacement of bad rings. Not pretty, especially for those silly people with mini 3 rings , but who would want their rig to be grounded for a long time?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 598 #25 January 6, 2016 I have a few pairs of RW-6 rings that I might be willing to sell. Keep in mind that when you install larger harness rings, you also might need to install longer (3-Ring Release) housings and maybe even longer release cables. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites