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QuoteGenerally when someone discovers that I'm not only a Christian, but a pastor, they are surprised. Not because I cuss like a sailor or get drunk with them, but because I don't preach at them. Hey, I'll even toss back a coke while you drink the beer in celebration of the sunset.
However, I've had many of the skydivers attend the church I pastor on their own initiation. I realize to many of my colleagues I'm not a good christian because I don't even invite them to my church. They have to ask me about how to get there first.
This is the way I see it. Jesus said we (Christians) are the SALT of the earth. Salt gives flavor in moderation, but few people want their food drowned in salt. Same thing with Christ as the "living water" You can give a "drink" to thirsty people or you can drown them.
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
I completely agree. Anyone who pushes any religion on another person usually ends up pushing that person away instead of drawing them in. The best way to preach a religion to non-believers is to simply live it and answer their questions when they ask. And when they're ready, they will ask.
pajarito 0
I agree that living as best you can in accordance with what Jesus taught is probably the best way to show others. That is very important, in my opinion, but is what I would consider a passive approach. Jesus not only taught to use your life as an example to others, but to also be active in your approach as described in The Great Commission below. I completely agree that one can be too pushy and drive people away. I think you’ve got to use your judgment and deliver the message according to the individual. Some are more open to it than others. As you alluded to before, some may not be open to it at all and even hostile towards it. God has to open the eyes of a person like that before anything can be done on your part. Being “pushy” as was described before could possibly be nonproductive.
The Great Commission
Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Mathew 28:16-20
The Great Commission
Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Mathew 28:16-20
kallend 1,621
QuoteQuoteGenerally when someone discovers that I'm not only a Christian, but a pastor, they are surprised. Not because I cuss like a sailor or get drunk with them, but because I don't preach at them. Hey, I'll even toss back a coke while you drink the beer in celebration of the sunset.
However, I've had many of the skydivers attend the church I pastor on their own initiation. I realize to many of my colleagues I'm not a good christian because I don't even invite them to my church. They have to ask me about how to get there first.
This is the way I see it. Jesus said we (Christians) are the SALT of the earth. Salt gives flavor in moderation, but few people want their food drowned in salt. Same thing with Christ as the "living water" You can give a "drink" to thirsty people or you can drown them.
I completely agree. Anyone who pushes any religion on another person usually ends up pushing that person away instead of drawing them in. The best way to preach a religion to non-believers is to simply live it and answer their questions when they ask. And when they're ready, they will ask.
I don't agree. There were a tremendous number of conversions when the church was allowed to aggressively push its agenda on the people, with being burnt at the stake or hanged or beheaded as the alternative.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteI renewed my PRO
***
Cool!
Let me know if ya need anything..
Brackets, banners, flags...
POW/MIA is packed!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
pajarito 0
You illustrate my point well.
Pawl 0
Glad I don't follow YOUR god. I'd imagine a little tollerance training wouldn't go amiss. Imagine if every teenager who was embarased by their parents were treated the same way. Jesus. Literally, and in vain, "JESUS!"
t
t
t, that last sentence shows how great your 'tolerance training' clases were !
"Africa is not for sissies"
now, however, since threatening someone with death isn't legal, that would not be a practical method.
Also, you'd have to question rather those conversions were true conversions, or if people were going through the motions out of fear for their lives.
You can never get someohe to truly accept something through coersion and threats. they have to WANT to accept it.
Also, you'd have to question rather those conversions were true conversions, or if people were going through the motions out of fear for their lives.
You can never get someohe to truly accept something through coersion and threats. they have to WANT to accept it.
it said to "make disciples." It didn't say how.
When I was in college, I was at Venice Beach waiting in line for the restroom inside a Borders' bookstore. The lady in line in front of me looked over at me, minding my own business, and said "I want to tell you about Jesus."
I looked at her like she was a freak and went to find another restroom.
Sometimes, people are open to talking about faith. And sometimes, it is just the wrong moment, wrong person, or wrong way to spread the message.
Most people react like I do when approached by a stranger. You look at that person thinking "who are you, what planet did you come from, and why are you bothering me? Go Away."
The best way to bring people to your religion is to truly LIVE IT. I really wish the people preaching and handing out tracts on the street would quit worrying so much about what others believe and concentrate on their own faith journey for a while. Its truly surprising how many of them have never actually read the Bible.
When I went through a time of questioning, the people I turned to were the ones I already had some kind of relationship with, not some random stranger who approached me on the street.
Personally, I think the only thing handing out tracts accomplishes is the unnecessary killing of trees. Those things seem to go straight from the hands of the giver to the hands of the recipient and into the trash can.
Sure, put the fliers for your church around town or in local businesses (if they allow it). Let those who are ready read them. Don't pressure those who aren't ready, because you will only drive them further away, which isn't what you want to accomplish.
If someone's only impression of Christians are "those weirdos on the Promenade who keep giving me fliers and yelling Bible verses at me", they're not going to see Christianity in a very positive light.
HOWEVER, if that person has friends who are Christian and feels that they can talk to those friends with no pressure and no risk of being judged, an open discussion of faith is more likely to take place. It could even start with something as simple as "dude, why aren't you ever at the DZ on Sunday morning?"
When I was in college, I was at Venice Beach waiting in line for the restroom inside a Borders' bookstore. The lady in line in front of me looked over at me, minding my own business, and said "I want to tell you about Jesus."
I looked at her like she was a freak and went to find another restroom.
Sometimes, people are open to talking about faith. And sometimes, it is just the wrong moment, wrong person, or wrong way to spread the message.
Most people react like I do when approached by a stranger. You look at that person thinking "who are you, what planet did you come from, and why are you bothering me? Go Away."
The best way to bring people to your religion is to truly LIVE IT. I really wish the people preaching and handing out tracts on the street would quit worrying so much about what others believe and concentrate on their own faith journey for a while. Its truly surprising how many of them have never actually read the Bible.
When I went through a time of questioning, the people I turned to were the ones I already had some kind of relationship with, not some random stranger who approached me on the street.
Personally, I think the only thing handing out tracts accomplishes is the unnecessary killing of trees. Those things seem to go straight from the hands of the giver to the hands of the recipient and into the trash can.
Sure, put the fliers for your church around town or in local businesses (if they allow it). Let those who are ready read them. Don't pressure those who aren't ready, because you will only drive them further away, which isn't what you want to accomplish.
If someone's only impression of Christians are "those weirdos on the Promenade who keep giving me fliers and yelling Bible verses at me", they're not going to see Christianity in a very positive light.
HOWEVER, if that person has friends who are Christian and feels that they can talk to those friends with no pressure and no risk of being judged, an open discussion of faith is more likely to take place. It could even start with something as simple as "dude, why aren't you ever at the DZ on Sunday morning?"
kallend 1,621
Quotenow, however, since threatening someone with death isn't legal, that would not be a practical method.
Of course it's legal, it's called "Capital Punishment" and is exercised by the US of A on a regular basis even today.
Good thing church and state are well separated here! When the church has an influence over state matters, you inevitably get things like the Inquisition. the Salem witch trials, etc.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
I meant that threatening someone with death as a means of conversion is illegal.
And yes, that is the exact reason I support separation of church and state. When religion gets a hold of government, it tends to run amok.
And yes, that is the exact reason I support separation of church and state. When religion gets a hold of government, it tends to run amok.
JohnRich 4
QuoteAlso, you'd have to question rather those conversions were true conversions, or if people were going through the motions out of fear for their lives.
You can never get someohe to truly accept something through coersion and threats. they have to WANT to accept it.
That's why I always wonder about those who say that we should "fear" god...
I don't know about fear...
but I'd definitely view an entity that powerful with a very healthy dose of respect.
but I'd definitely view an entity that powerful with a very healthy dose of respect.
crzjp20 0
i think when christians say they fear God it is not like a shake in my boots fear. I think it is mre like a respect fear.
Example: I am working on my blackbelt in Shokan Karatee, my instrustor is a 5th degree black belt and could break me like i was a twig. So I fear him out of respect. I fear what he cpuld do, but he wont do it.
Same idea i think... we fear out of respect.
Example: I am working on my blackbelt in Shokan Karatee, my instrustor is a 5th degree black belt and could break me like i was a twig. So I fear him out of respect. I fear what he cpuld do, but he wont do it.
Same idea i think... we fear out of respect.
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Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.
Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.
I don't fear my karate instructor.
I definitely respect him for the damage he could inflict if he wanted, but I am confident enough in him that I know he wouldn't ever hurt me unless I gave him a damn good reason. So long as I don't supply that reason, I have no reason to fear him.
Fear and respect are two very different things. Sometimes they should go hand in hand, but not always.
For example, when I'm doing a kata (martial arts form where you're fighting an imaginary attacker) with my knives or kamas (miniature scythes for lack of a better description), the second I begin to fear my weapon is the second I injure myself. Fear makes you act irrationally. While I definitely respect my weapons, this respect has come with a thorough understanding of the mechanics of the weapon. When I begin to fear the weapon, I do things such as trying to move my body away from the blade, which usually results in stabbing myself with the blade in my other hand.
Respect means giving someone or something their due. It means admitting that the person/place/thing has power, acknowledging that, and working with it.
Fear is, for the most part, something irrational caused by ignorance.
For example: My mom used to be terrified of guns. Even an unloaded weapon scared the heck out of her. My dad is a gun owner. He sat her down, went over how the weapon worked, what made it work, and why. Now, my mom views his handgun with a healthy dose of respect. She doesn't touch it when my dad's not around. She doesn't point it at other people. And, she is no longer shaking in irrational fear of it.
Fear: A feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or imminence of danger.
A state or condition marked by this feeling: living in fear.
A feeling of disquiet or apprehension: a fear of looking foolish.
A reason for dread or apprehension
Respect:
To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
I definitely respect him for the damage he could inflict if he wanted, but I am confident enough in him that I know he wouldn't ever hurt me unless I gave him a damn good reason. So long as I don't supply that reason, I have no reason to fear him.
Fear and respect are two very different things. Sometimes they should go hand in hand, but not always.
For example, when I'm doing a kata (martial arts form where you're fighting an imaginary attacker) with my knives or kamas (miniature scythes for lack of a better description), the second I begin to fear my weapon is the second I injure myself. Fear makes you act irrationally. While I definitely respect my weapons, this respect has come with a thorough understanding of the mechanics of the weapon. When I begin to fear the weapon, I do things such as trying to move my body away from the blade, which usually results in stabbing myself with the blade in my other hand.
Respect means giving someone or something their due. It means admitting that the person/place/thing has power, acknowledging that, and working with it.
Fear is, for the most part, something irrational caused by ignorance.
For example: My mom used to be terrified of guns. Even an unloaded weapon scared the heck out of her. My dad is a gun owner. He sat her down, went over how the weapon worked, what made it work, and why. Now, my mom views his handgun with a healthy dose of respect. She doesn't touch it when my dad's not around. She doesn't point it at other people. And, she is no longer shaking in irrational fear of it.
Fear: A feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or imminence of danger.
A state or condition marked by this feeling: living in fear.
A feeling of disquiet or apprehension: a fear of looking foolish.
A reason for dread or apprehension
Respect:
To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
crzjp20 0
...... it was just an anology..... but i understand what your saying
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Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.
Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.
pajarito 0
Our English definitions don't always fit. I found and read this article and found it interesting concerning the interpretation of the word "fear" in biblical reference.
http://www.en-gedi.org/articles/director/articles_director_0204.html
http://www.en-gedi.org/articles/director/articles_director_0204.html
pajarito 0
Troll Song
I'm the bad old, wicked old Troll
Tooraloora, Tooraladdie
I'm the bad old, wicked old Troll
And I eats goats for breakfast.
Lyrics by Jonathan Selby
I'm the bad old, wicked old Troll
Tooraloora, Tooraladdie
I'm the bad old, wicked old Troll
And I eats goats for breakfast.
Lyrics by Jonathan Selby
Excellent article.
That's exactly what I was trying to say.
I copied the text below from a handout given by a priest at LMU regarding reading the Bible:
(edit: Written by Fr. Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.)
When we read the Bible, we need to keep in mind that we're reading a translation.
No original manuscript of any biblical book has survived. All of the texts written by the biblical authors themselves have been lost or destroyed over the centuries. All we have are copies of copies of copies, most of them copied hundreds of years after the original texts were written.
The manuscripts we have contain numerous textual variations. There are literally thousands of differences in the surviving biblical manuscripts, many of them minor (spelling variations, synonyms, different word orders), but some of them major (whole sections missing or added).
The meanings of some biblical texts are unknown or uncertain. Some Hebrew or Greek words occur only once in the Bible, but nowhere else in ancient literature, so their exact meanings are unknown; and some biblical phrases are ambiguous, with more than one possible meaning.
Ancient languages are very different from modern languages. Not only do Ancient Hebrew and Greek use completely different alphabets and vocabularies, but their grammatical rules and structures (word order, prepositions, conjugations of verbs, etc.) are very different from modern English.
Every "translation" is already inevitably an "interpretation". Anyone who knows more than one modern language realizes that "translations" often have meanings that are slightly different from the original, and that different people inevitably translate the same texts in slightly different ways.
All living languages continually change and develop over time! Not only is "Modern English" very different from 16th century English, but the language used in Great Britain, America, Australia, and other countries are slightly different from each other (in spelling, grammar, idioms, word meanings, etc.).
Edited to add the reference... I found the entire article on Fr. Just's website.
http://clawww.lmu.edu/faculty/fjust/Bible/English_Translations.htm
That's exactly what I was trying to say.
I copied the text below from a handout given by a priest at LMU regarding reading the Bible:
(edit: Written by Fr. Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.)
When we read the Bible, we need to keep in mind that we're reading a translation.
No original manuscript of any biblical book has survived. All of the texts written by the biblical authors themselves have been lost or destroyed over the centuries. All we have are copies of copies of copies, most of them copied hundreds of years after the original texts were written.
The manuscripts we have contain numerous textual variations. There are literally thousands of differences in the surviving biblical manuscripts, many of them minor (spelling variations, synonyms, different word orders), but some of them major (whole sections missing or added).
The meanings of some biblical texts are unknown or uncertain. Some Hebrew or Greek words occur only once in the Bible, but nowhere else in ancient literature, so their exact meanings are unknown; and some biblical phrases are ambiguous, with more than one possible meaning.
Ancient languages are very different from modern languages. Not only do Ancient Hebrew and Greek use completely different alphabets and vocabularies, but their grammatical rules and structures (word order, prepositions, conjugations of verbs, etc.) are very different from modern English.
Every "translation" is already inevitably an "interpretation". Anyone who knows more than one modern language realizes that "translations" often have meanings that are slightly different from the original, and that different people inevitably translate the same texts in slightly different ways.
All living languages continually change and develop over time! Not only is "Modern English" very different from 16th century English, but the language used in Great Britain, America, Australia, and other countries are slightly different from each other (in spelling, grammar, idioms, word meanings, etc.).
Edited to add the reference... I found the entire article on Fr. Just's website.
http://clawww.lmu.edu/faculty/fjust/Bible/English_Translations.htm
"If you had your're choice, would you rather be
feared or loved ?"
~ "C's" question to Sonny in 'A Bronx Tale'
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
feared or loved ?"
~ "C's" question to Sonny in 'A Bronx Tale'
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
pajarito 0
I'd rather be feared, in the biblical sense, because it holds more meaning than just love.
BTW, the Great Commission that Jesus gave to his disciples was to go and preach the gospel, disciple new believers, and baptize them.
Salvation is the work and ministry of the Holy Spirit. Only you know if and when the Holy Spirit is speaking to you. If you hear His voice you can't escape it. You can ignore it but you can't escape it.
The work therefore of the Christian is to assist those that hear the voice of the Holy Spirit.
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