HELP with Para with leg braces out of a C182 narrow body

[splat200 0]

I'm just looking for the straight honest goods here.
I have an enquiry from a Para with 200 solo jumps.
Wanting to come to my DZ to do some jumps out of our C-182.

She comes from DZ’s with big turbine aircraft.
And I think the smallest aircraft she has jumped out of is a 206.
(which has a wider cabin, bigger door, and no wheel-step in the way)

And she wears a full leg braces.

I wish to hear/learn/understand the issues surrounding this type of jump from a C182.

We have done many Para-tandem jumps out of our C-182, and understand those challenges.
And we have brainstormed for years, trying to figure out how to do a PARA-SOLO ‘safely’ from our plane.
But we could never figure out how it could be done in our small plane, (with leg braces).

I’m eager to hear from any Para-jumpers, Para-instructors, or others that know of jumping with these braces and C-182 aircraft.

Thanks,
Splat!

p.s.
As a DZO, I'm responsible for safe jumping practices at my DZ.
So I need to be knowledgeable in this type of jump.
Instead of just putting my faith in a visitor jumper, (with a whole 200 jumps).
And hoping she knows what she is doing…

[gimpboogie 0]

Thanks Splat for tossing the question out to the larger community, because I'm the one your talking about and also would really like to hear the feedback from others on this issue.

I know we occasionally rent out the 182 from our neighbour DZ (I've never jumped out of it although I did a few tandem progression dives out of it
(which can be seen in one of my videos I sent you links to)

But NEVER solo ( I will speak with my DZO about this when we get a chance to get that 182 here again and will see if we can try to figure it out before I come out there [or get our own 182 back together again- ] )


Dale, or Peter how about it? Have you guys ever jumped out of a 182 ?

(they are the only para's in the world that we know of who jump with leg braces)

thanks_ this info would be absolutely critical- because I'd really like to jump at this particular DZ.

Although there is the one with the King Air which I've been invited to come jump from- and will certainly visit but this particular DZ that Splat is speaking of is what I'm really looking to see if this is going to work out for me.

To become active member in the Bonus Days Club you must very narrowly escape eternal freefall ... one exciting time.)-Pat Works

[splat200 0]

I'm a DZO concerned with safety and
our staff has no experience with Solo Para's with leg-braces.

We have no interest in being a test facility, nor
in debating on DZ.com the acceptable risk factors.
We just want to know, or be educated on the issues with this type of jump.

Again any instructor or Para-jumper with experience jumping from a C-182.
please PM me privately.

Thanks,
Phil Stoker
Victoria Skydiving Adventures
www.victoriaskydiving.com
(250) 655-4434

[jackwallace 3]

If you did a backward somersault out of a Skyvan, could you get stable on your own?

U only make 2 jumps: the first one for some weird reason and the last one that you lived through. The rest are just filler.
scr 316

[gimpboogie 0]

If your asking me (assuming here that you are)...

absolutely.

I had to do the ride-the-slide exit for my Aff/PFF progression, and have done all sorts of exits (including having people just pick me up and toss me out- that's always fun),
head down exits, front flips, as well as wagon wheel exits.

But the Skyvan is a totally different 'beast; then a narrow body 182.....

it would be comparable to slightly modifying a canopy- that would initially seem like it would be 'no big deal' but turns out to make a huge difference.
An example:
Taking a Raven3 modifying the line lines slightly- and suddenly there is a steeper glide angle giving it a faster descent rate (yet more powerful glide on the bottom end once you find the right 'window' for the flare- but the toggle pressure increased from the original 3-5 lbs to now about 7-8 lbs....
you need to be aware of these things before starting to experiment (thus kiting the canopy often prior to jumping it- these are all things I've played with, with my BASE canopies prior to purchasing a BlackJack to just get myself the most responsive BASE canopy I could find and stop using non-BASE specific canopies for the sport.

Yet with a plane/exits there is no opportunity to do anything similar- it would be akin to going ahead and jumping that modified canopy before knowing what will happen... not the best choice unless one is very experienced canopy pilot (which no one with 200-300 jumps is!)

Seriously I've thought about it quite a bit and there IS NO easy answer to this...

I mean I had thought about looking out the doorway, putting my hands on the step and doing a front flip out- but that still requires a push off with the legs on exit.

Then I thought about the front flip option, by placing my feet on the step- but that's not going to work because it will be very difficult to keep feet you have no control over, to stay on a step (sure the leg braces which are under my jump pants keep the knees at a certain angle but it still leaves the feet unstable- totally opposite of what would make that option work...

it would require someone hanging off the strut- holding the feet- and another inside the plane to help 'push off' ((as all the other planes I jump, I only need to use my arms to push off but with a 182 it is not that simple at all.. the step, side body of the plane and in worst case the tail all must be cleared relo... which is not an acceptable solution either.

then add to it the narrow body- giving more possibilities to catch my pin cover, or PC on the exit causing either a premature deployment soon after exit,, or worse- upon exit- which could take the plane down if my canopy was to deploy on exit due to PC coming out, bridle catching on something, and possibly the canopy on the tail....

all very serious and potentially fatal (to everyone in the plane! ).

There needs to be a solid/decent previously 'tried' solution to this...

as this DZ does not want to become an experimental center (and with good reason!) for this activity.

Sure my DZ and where I did my 1st AFF/PFF jump have been 'experimental' in having me learn to skydive- for which I am grateful for without that I would still be wheeling on the ground looking at the skies
instead of freeflying, doing RW etc. as I am now.

But at the same time my coaches (with 30 yrs skydiving experience, world records etc. and 2nd instructor with world championships and 30 yrs experience as well) took many precautions before I ever jumped the 2st time. From lots of hanging in the harness, travelling to a tunnel to see what will happen when I am in freefall before jumping.

Exiting out of a plane that is very different then anything that I've jumped from previously is nothing even dirty diving could give a correct assessment as to what would happen when that plane is flying at jump run speeds.

Really the only option for me is to 'experiment' here at home if at all possible and have that on video, as well as the feedback of the instructors involved in this.

Because as far as I know, none of the 2 para's who jump with knee braves have not jumped out of an 182 (the 3rd one who flies solo -Packing Jarett- does not use leg braces).

To my understanding, and seeing the videos, both of the jump predominantly out of 206's, Ottters or Skyvans.


Seeing your profile shows 2 jumps to date, I hope you have some idea of what I was trying to say with the Raven and line trim example...
if not, sorry then this thread is a bit complicated for you9=-understandably so.

hope that sheds some light on the issues faced with this situation.

To become active member in the Bonus Days Club you must very narrowly escape eternal freefall ... one exciting time.)-Pat Works

[jackwallace 3]

Back when we had two aircraft. A Cessna 195 and a 182. Instead of teaching the students two different exits for static line we taught them one. The 195 has no strut or landing gear near the door. So the student would sit in the door, legs hanging out. Right arm on the outside of the fuselage. Left hand on the door sill. On go all they did was arch. Off they'd go. So we did the same with the 182. No problem. And that was the days of wart gear. 55+ pounds of crap that hung past your ass and a belly reserve big as a foot ball.
I think the leg braces will be a pain in the plane and crawling out, better start early. Sit with your back to the dash and scoot out the door.
Shouldn't be hard to dirt dive this and figure out any problems.

U only make 2 jumps: the first one for some weird reason and the last one that you lived through. The rest are just filler.
scr 316

[gimpboogie 0]

Thanks for the response. Yes that is exactly how I exit when I do a "poised exit" out the 206, or the Caravan or the Otter.

The thing is that despite how much a 'walking person' thinks they are purely pushing off with their arms- they truly are using their leg muscles as well (anyone who wants to try it- go out and focus on what parts of your body you are feeling the muscle tension in, when you do such a poised exit- Im certain you will realize that some of the 'push off' comes from our legs as well.

Furthermore, there is the issue of the wind speeds affecting these 'flopping around limp legs'.
That creates quite a bit of instability for which I must compensate with my arms (meaning I need to hold on with even a firmer grip with my arms - one on the floor and one on the door frame).

Also the winds want to pull the legs back away from the relative wind, and under the fuselage of the plane- further adding to the tension needed to 'hold on' until it is time to push off.

Then there is the issue of needing to push off even harder with my arms because my legs are sort of trying to go back towards the back of the plane and under it at the same time.

This sort of a 'juggling act' between balancing the power of my arms to keeping myself stead at he door way and being able to push off far enough that I do not end up hitting the plane on exit.

Two summers ago, I was either in a bit of a hurry to do this, or perhaps more tired after having done 4 jumps prior that day, as my push off into the arch was not far enough and I hit m head on the camera step of the Caravan.

This of course did not cause the Caravan to experience any effects, but my helmet still holds a 'scar' the length of the section that hit the step and i was seeing stars until i landed- thus using an alternate landing method. Instead of trying to fly the pattern, I set myself up against the wind from the beginning of our runway and flew straight along it until I was to land This was to ensure safety considering I had just hit my head and I did not want to have that experience affect my ability judge my landing pattern as our drop zone is a fairly tight area to land in (actually the smallest clearing I've yet jumped into. With barb wire fences to the West of the airstrip, road and hydro lines to the South and dense forest to the North and forest, with a trailer park to the East.
The airport buildings and several dozen ultra lights scattered along the roadway leading to the hangars with perhaps a football field size landing area.

Yet thank you for the interest, and may I ask what your level of participation in the sport is? are you a former or a current jumper? a coach? a DZO? or?

As Splat is looking for information from those who have first hand experience with this type of jump (and I agree with him- although I may end up getting that 1st hand experience this summer- depending on how things go here at home and which DZ's I will end up visiting. This of course would be good- considering the nature of our sport and the already inherent vast differences in paraplegic jumping versus the 'walkers'.

For example, to give you one small example. Because I can not walk I end up dragging myself along in the plane to the place I will sit.

This already causes potential issues with my PC as well as my main pin cover. (I actually had a unintentional deployment in head down due to one of these issues- and the person who did my pin check either did not catch the problem, or my container changed between the time the pin check was done and i moved to the doorway- which I sit as close as possible to already as it is.

So I do not have far to go- merely a few feet in the Skyvan and even less in the Caravan, Otter and the 206.

So these things all combined do add factors to the equation that walking people do not need to contend with.

While I appreciate your discourse, and look forward to learning more about your experience in the sport- and currency (seeing that you spoke of the days of wart gear.

mind you, I NEVER sit at the end of the 206 with my back to the dash= specifically for the reasons just explained- scooting myself along the floor to the doorway is too much of a risk factor to have my PC coming out partially. From what I understand with others in my condition, this is fairly standard practice- to keep us as close to the door as we can be.

And we fly a 206 without a door, so I'm sitting as close to it as I can (but on the opposite wall away from the door way so the rest of the people can get out if they are freeflyers when I am jumping on my belly or if they are doing a low hop and pop and I'm going to top floor.

Thanks again for your interest.

To become active member in the Bonus Days Club you must very narrowly escape eternal freefall ... one exciting time.)-Pat Works

[packing_jarrett 0]

this is what i sent to the dzo.
Jumping out of a 182 is not hard or dangerous it just requires extra attention and a little bit of help. When I jump out of the 182 the hardest part is getting in. Usually I sit next to the pilot with my legs toward the door. when its time to jump I have a fellow jumper swing my legs out and I sit on the edge of the door. 9 times out of 10 my feet rest on the step/gear strut naturally. Now with a good count and with team work from the another jumper I pull myself out while they lift and push. It works out nicely to a diving exit.

I've also had the helping jumper climb out before me and help pull me by my chest strap out the door as well. Both seem to work equally well.

This stuff isn't rocket science. When you actually look at it you'll realize its no big deal :)

Na' Cho' Cheese

[gimpboogie 0]

Awesome! Thanks Jarrett, I wondered what would happen with the legs on the step (if they'd just swing off from the winds_never having jumped the 182).

Your input is priceless.
As I understand you jump at Skydive Hawaii, so if Splat has any further inquiries I'm hoping he can contact them.

As per his prior comments, about not wanting to be a part of anything "experimental" (assuming he's meaning trying out something that he has no verification it's been done before), I was trying very hard to be as cautious as possible (looking at this from his side of the coin rather then mine- as I'd be willing to try it any day I can find a 182).

Hoping this will satisfactorily answer his inquiries, as I'll be visiting Victoria very soon & would like to go check out his DZ, and if this issue wasn't resolved to his satisfaction prior to my trip I'd be going to Pitt Meadows to jump.

Thanks again

To become active member in the Bonus Days Club you must very narrowly escape eternal freefall ... one exciting time.)-Pat Works

[splat200 0]

Hi Jarrett,
do you wear full leg braces ?
Or do you have your legs strapped together ?
Phil.

[packing_jarrett 0]

no I don't wear braces but secure my knees together with a piece of foam to keep my legs at about shoulder width.

Na' Cho' Cheese

[cptchaos 0]

Hey Minna, sorry to get in to this so late, but it's been a while since I logged on.
I have done many jumps out of a 182 without any problems.
I usually swing my legs out and shift myself out so I am sitting on the wheel strut. Side roll off the strut and away you go.
I sometimes do a back roll off the strut while holding on to my legs, to swing them up and over as I go over. This way usually results in rapid stability. Faster than with a usual exit. Possibly the roll helps with this. It all depends if the door is fore or aft and where the strut is in relation to the door.. If you can just sit on the strut and exit as you please.

all that is gold does not glitter
not all those who wander
are lost!