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Morgenhloz

Anyone have contact info for a Paul Iglin?

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Hi all,
I recently bought a pair of Strong 305 chutes from a guy named Paul Iglin. Shortly thereafter one of the chutes partially deployed while I was flying, so I called the guy up but he never answered. I stopped by Strong Enterprises to get a repack, but when they opened it up, there was actually a National Phantom canopy inside the Strong container, and they refused to pack it since they don't condone using other manufacturers' canopies in their containers. Additionally, National canopies have a 20yr manufacturer's life limit, and this one was over 20 years old.
A couple weeks later I finally got a call back from him, and he said hed either get me a Strong canopy, or I could return it for a refund. It's now been a couple months and he hasn't returned any phone calls or emails.
Does anyone know this guy? Seems like he might be ignoring me...
Thanks for the help!

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I can't know what your agreements with Paul were, such as whether there was an expectation of a non-Strong canopy inside. I won't get directly involved with whatever business dealings you had. I know he is somewhere on dropzone.

I can at least give you some background on the gear you have:

Does the packing card list the types of canopy correctly? An owner should be somewhat familiar with the packing card in order to confirm repack dates. Are the "contents as advertised" and "as packed"?

Manufacturers sometimes disallow certain mixing of canopies and rigs. Sometimes this could be for very good reasons, sometimes it is just uncertainty about compatibility for something they haven't tested themselves, and sometimes for simple competitive reasons (they prefer to sell all their own stuff).

Riggers in the US are allowed the freedom to determine compatibility, and combine different components from different companies. (In any given case, riggers will of course have different opinions on what is or is not compatible and completely safe.) I'd have to let an expert on the issue weigh in though, as arguing about air regulations can get messy.

National's canopies are allowed to be packed past the 20 year point. National nowadays says they may not, and many riggers may choose to follow the manufacturer's advice as a sort of "best practice". The FAA however has stated that unless the canopy was certified with an age limit, or the manufacturer gets the FAA to issue an Airworthiness Directive {edit: corrected from my typing 'Bulletin' instead}, a canopy sold without an age limit does not have to comply with a limit set later. (The FAA's guidance is arguably unclear whether the limit does exist if they added it to a manual that came with the parachute when it was first sold. I can't recall when National first started putting it in manuals.)

It is not uncommon for skydiving gear to be over 20 years of age, although it is also common for riggers to prefer gear of lower age (especially for round reserves). A rigger determines airworthiness and each rigger may choose to pack what he thinks appropriate.

The age of the reserve should have been mentioned as it would be part of any discussion about what you were getting and at what price. There are always compromises, but the user should be informed.

In conclusion:
- What you have is in my belief entirely legal in the US even if Strong and National might frown on the combination (and wish you'd buy new stuff of theirs)
- Whether what you have is what you understood you were purchasing, I don't know.

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You're correct, the rig is perfectly legal to pack per the FAA. I have another chute with a canopy beyond the manufacturer's life limit which I fly with regularly. The problem is that most riggers I know won't even touch it because of the date on the canopy, and I have to send it off to Texas to get it re-packed.
The chute I bought was advertised as a Strong 305 with a 1995 container and a 1986 canopy. I didn't mind that the canopy is from 1986 because Strong doesn't impose a life limit on their canopies.
Aside from having a chute that will be difficult to have re-packed, the thing partially deployed while I was wearing it. Imagine if I had been in an open-cockpit aircraft and the drogue got caught in the slipstream. One of the three closing loops had had its pin come out but the seal was still intact. It was pretty uncomfortable flying in a small aerobatic airplane with a big spring and drogue flailing around between me and the seatback.
After all this, I still wouldn't be too perturbed if he had made things right, but he's just been ignoring my calls and emails. He seems pretty immature if you ask me.

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I am disagreeing with Peter Chapman.
Phantoms should not be packed into Strong Pilot Emergency Parachutes because they cannot be packed according to the container manufacturers' instructions. Phantoms have Type 3 diapers with all the lines stowed on the diaper. IOW Phantoms create a large lump of suspension lines that pokes the pilot in the backside.
Meanwhile, all the Strong round reserves have Type 2 or Type 4 diapers.

Legal arguments aside .... I was glad when National, Butler, Softie, etc. told us not to pack their PEPs after 20 years. They put a maximum "life" of 20 years on PEPs because PEPs routinely flown in the Southern California desert are worn out after 20 years. If you want to understand my professional opinion of Phantoms, just read what Manley Butler wrote in 1990. National Phantoms suffered from a long list of Service Bulletins (narrow diaper, Kevlar reinforcing bands, acid mesh, etc.), the worst of which was acid mesh. Even if that Phantom was certified "acid mesh free", another 20 years of testing has weakened the fabric. During the 1980s, only two PEP manufacturers did not suffer from acid mesh: Strong and Freeflight Enterprises (Softie).


As for the OP's problem with accidental openings on Strong PEPs .... I have seen loose closing (too long) on several Strong back-type PEPs. The simple solution is to sew them more until they are short enough to maintain correct tension on the ripcord pin. Any decent rigger can fix that the next time the parachute is opened for inspection.

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To address your initial concern, most everyone knows Paul. If he told you he will do something, you can bank on it. He may be travelling or not chained to the internet for some reason right now, but he is well respected and trustworthy.

Try another call or email and give it a few more days.

As an aside, pin protection through careful movement in a small cockpit is always a good idea.

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Quote


National's canopies are allowed to be packed past the 20 year point. National nowadays says they may not, and many riggers may choose to follow the manufacturer's advice as a sort of "best practice". The FAA however has stated that unless the canopy was certified with an age limit, or the manufacturer gets the FAA to issue an Airworthiness Directive {edit: corrected from my typing 'Bulletin' instead}, a canopy sold without an age limit does not have to comply with a limit set later. (The FAA's guidance is arguably unclear whether the limit does exist if they added it to a manual that came with the parachute when it was first sold. I can't recall when National first started putting it in manuals.)



Peter,
According to the FAA, time limits are to be addressed at the time of initial TSO certification to be valid.

National is still manufacturing parachutes under the same old TSO from years ago that never had a time limit. The only thing that has changed at National is their manual.

With that said and understood, there are not any National parachutes out there that have a 20 year time limit according to the FAA.

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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Before MEL gets upset, most of this post is a retort to Peter.


Peter,
I refuse to debate you on legal grounds because I fear lawyers even more than I fear lazy aircraft mechanics. ..... long explanation .......

National quit sewing Phantom canopies something like 20 years ago. The latest "20 year life limit" was a discrete way of saying "don't jump our second-generation canopies anymore.

GQ Security closed their California factory shortly after they sewed a batch of SAC round reserves with acid mesh. The parent company:
GQ Defence (of Great Britain) issued a similar updated manual that grounded SAC round reserves affected by the acid mesh recall.

Pioneer Aerospace quit sewing civilian canopies after they made a batch of "K" series round canopies with acid mesh. Pioneer Aerospace distanced themselves from that bad batch of canopies.

National sewed "Phantom Aerostar" canopies for almost 20 years. The Aerostar is a completely different canopy with major differences in line attachment methods, etc.
FreeFlight Enterprises sub-contracted to sew Aerostar canopies (for National) for a few more years, but eventually Garry Douris (head of FFE) insisted on so many improvements, that it was easier for National to switch to installing FFE Preserve canopies in National PEPs.

Fairly recently, Butler and Para-Phernalia (aka the Softie factory) issued new manuals saying not to pack any of their PEPs more than 20 years old. They "lived" their gear for 3 reasons: acid mesh, improvements and wear and tear. First, they want to ground the last round canopies affected by acid mesh.
Secondly, they subtly admit that their first generation containers were crude and newer models are more graceful.
Third, after 20 years of flying in the Southern California desert, most PEP harness/containers are worn out.

Peter,
Another point that you are ignoring is the design of Strong PEPs which use suspension line bulk to work as a "kicker plate" for pilot-chute deployment, which means that packing Strong PEPs without most of the lines under the pilot-chute reduces the ability of the pilot-chute spring to launch it clear of the burble created by tumbling aircrew.

I chose to ignore the finer legal debates because I believe that the practical considerations of keeping my customers alive alive outweigh the finer legal points. IOW repeat (rigging) business is preferable to defending myself in court. I repeat my beliefs that all round canopies mentioned during in the acid mesh recalls of the 1980s are obsolete and should be grounded. Heck! I no longer own the tools needed to re-certify them "acid mesh free." I also believe that most harness/containers wear out after 20 years' service. As for " closet queens" that have lain in storage for 19 years: good luck finding the manuals. .... And yes, I have a hundred or so old manuals gathering dust in my closet, but advise young riggers not to waste their time on parachutes older than them.

Sorry, please amend my last sentence to take into consideration the multiple ways that law schools teach young lawyers to ignore any facts that distract from the lawyers' predetermined conclusion.

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And you are using your prerogative to determine incompatibility between certain components, at least as far as what you'd choose to pack. Since I haven't tried to pack that odd Strong + National combination with rather different bulk distributions I can't say how practical it is to make it work well....

(Interesting about the Preserves in National packs -- I now see the latest manual lists all 3 Aerostar sizes plus the Preserve I, depending on model. The web site still just shows what must be the 3 Aerostar sizes.)

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Sorry MEL,
My last post was not directed specifically at you.

Most of my post was directed at Peter .... then I ranted about some attitudes that Manley Butler burnt into my long-term memory almost 30 years ago ... and I am too lazy to change my opinion now.

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masterrigger1

Quote


National's canopies are allowed to be packed past the 20 year point. National nowadays says they may not, and many riggers may choose to follow the manufacturer's advice as a sort of "best practice". The FAA however has stated that unless the canopy was certified with an age limit, or the manufacturer gets the FAA to issue an Airworthiness Directive {edit: corrected from my typing 'Bulletin' instead}, a canopy sold without an age limit does not have to comply with a limit set later. (The FAA's guidance is arguably unclear whether the limit does exist if they added it to a manual that came with the parachute when it was first sold. I can't recall when National first started putting it in manuals.)



Peter,
According to the FAA, time limits are to be addressed at the time of initial TSO certification to be valid.

National is still manufacturing parachutes under the same old TSO from years ago that never had a time limit. The only thing that has changed at National is their manual.

With that said and understood, there are not any National parachutes out there that have a 20 year time limit according to the FAA.

MEL



The same is true with softies (Paraphernalia) I have an F.A.A letter somewhere that states they can not impose life limits because none where stated under the original TSO. When we contacted the manufacturer they told us that the 20 year limit was just a "recommendation" and not really enforceable by law. So you have two options as a rigger, you can refuse to pack a 20 year old softie because of the manufacturers "recommendation" Or you can go ahead and pack it because technically it is perfectly legal to do so as interpreted by the F.A.A.
Onward and Upward!

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I bought my first audible from Paul a few years back. When it did not arrive after a month in South Africa he paid my money back . Then it arrived a few days later :S. I repaid the money (PayPal scored on that deal) Stand-up guy.
Blue Skies

Nigel

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I bought my first rig from Paul, on eBay. Great experience.

My experience was that he described the gear exactly. The listing disclosed date of manufacture, condition, sizes, and serial numbers. It also has hi-res pictures, or at least hi-res for 2006 lol.

He sells on Facebook too, again his posts always disclose all of the equipment in detail, and I have never seen anyone have a gripe about the guy.

Did you ask about specifics when bought?

Can't speak to the communication after the sale, but I am just very suprised you didn't know the gear specifics for two reasons. One, I Would be surprised if Paul didn't disclose all the specifics and send pictures. Two, I don't understand why someone would buy parachutes without getting this information.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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