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aguila

Tandems jumping first. Safe?

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mm i dont think this guy is going to listen to ANYONE.. but i dont want people to think that they entirely wasted their time in replying, its been an educational read for the rest of us newbies!

I hope someone from this persons DZ is reading this thread also, for the safety of jumpers there. Scary stuff indeed.

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I am dizzy reading this thread. Since you don't feel that Billvon is experienced enough, please list the experience level of the person you'd like an answer from (jump #'s, years in sport, ratings (S&TA, IE, etc)).

I made a New Years resolution to not berate anyone on this board.:S





I did not say that at all. I just prove experienced people pushed by circumstances can do something wrong.

Circumstances: Most people here were so busy trying to blame me so that they missed the environment factors for this incident (win, speed, etc.) Just one less experienced skydiver, DougH ,asked for the factors this afternoon.

If the most experienced people here, with an easy environment: 0 ft AGL, no wind, safe grounded, etc) failed to take in account such important factors as wind speed, direction, altitude etc, imagine what could happen when less experienced people skydive

Again: The USPA document states:


1. A USPA Instructor should teach this section.
2. Freefall safety is everyone’’s responsibility.
3. Exit order should be based on the type and size of groups, when the aircraft is flown into the wind for jump run.
a. Slower falling groups first, large to small
b. Faster falling groups next, large to small
c. Freefall students
d. Tandem students
e. Wingsuit fliers (or they may exit first in some situations) and canopy pilots who are pulling at altitudes of 5,000 feet and above


whole document here:

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:fKbgg5fOqNIJ:https://www.uspa.org/safety/safetyday/SafetyDayGuidelines2006.pdf+tandem+exit+o

If you think the USPA and me are wrong you should tell them your arguments (you already have told them to me but not convinced at all) because if you are right and we are wrong, you could avoid fatalities no matter how many personal attacks you receive for daring to contradict them. I am aware is not easy to contradict more experienced skydivers ( you bet ;)) but some times it is necessary.

While this was not the original topic of this thread, here are the factors:

plane: Cessna 208
Skydivers: 17
Winds: no wind said the pilots (weird? Maybe but they are the pilots)
Jump run altitude: 12K AGL
TM opening altitude 5K
My planed opening altitude: 3.5K ft
I did not track until saw the TM right below me

I have learned much with your help and enjoyed this thread a lot, specially the USPA document (sorry, I cannot lie :P ) Thank you so much!


Blue Skies!

PS. Good luck with your resolution. It would be nice :)
Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

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>I just prove experienced people pushed by circumstances can do
>something wrong.

Agreed. Wise jumpers learn from their mistakes; that's why wise jumpers often make better decisions than newer jumpers. Doesn't mean that newer jumpers are dumb or anything, it just means that they have not yet made some of the mistakes that other people have made, or have not yet internalized the mistakes other people have made.

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Contact the USPA and see what they say...I believe those fall under the Basic Safety Recommendations, so they can be changed by the local DZ with certain rules (but I'm not sure).

If its a hazard I'm sure they'll help you make appropriate changes there.

[Edited for clarity]

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Now you are the one not answering my questions. I will ask again.

How long did you wait? Exactly how many seconds?

I am looking forward to your answer.

And just to help clear it up for you, all of the experienced people who said they could not tell you how long to wait based on the information given actually were asking those questions. It is convenient to overlook that but you seem intelligent enough to know it anyway. You chose to play innocent and not give the information needed. Now you say you knew all along that winds, speed etc are necessary for an informed decision?
"... this ain't a Nerf world."

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Now you are the one not answering my questions. I will ask again.

How long did you wait? Exactly how many seconds?

I am looking forward to your answer.

You chose to play innocent and not give the information needed.



I was also so busy replying attacks that forgot posting the scenario. :ph34r: LOL

Anyway, nobody asked but Dough a few hours ago and I already posted the conditions.

Suggestions are welcome! :)
Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

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I was also so busy replying attacks that forgot posting the scenario. LOL

Anyway, nobody asked but Dough a few hours ago and I already posted the conditions.

Suggestions are welcome!



I am still asking how many seconds you waited. That is all. Below is everything I found that you said about it and I don't see a number. An example would be: "3 seconds" or "8 seconds" or "25 seconds". Is it possible you didn't count?

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Nicholas, nobody knew the scenario, wind, how long I waited, etc, so they could not tell if I did it wrong or right, got scared (or very scared ,) etc Fortunately it did not happen the way you say.

Briefly:

I was bound to jump after a tandem and a friend followed me filming. Winds: 0 said the pilots. I posted a Poll where you can see the full scenario.

When I was hanging out of the door saw a big cloud coming straight to us. I should not wait much to avoid it so that I could keep an eye on the tandem but waited the longest I could considering the conditions.

I did some maneuvers (no tracking) for my friend to film. Unfortunately we could not avoid the cloud. I was very worried about the tandem and tried to spot it.

Got it! As soon as I was about to leave the cloud - 4000 ft, I spotted the tandem with its canopy open right below me. I cannot tell exactly how far, maybe 450 ft.

I just tracked as fast as possible, saw a fast shadow on my right side, lost some balance, recovered, etc. and landed. Did I get scared and screwed it up? Fortunately not.

Mistake? SURE! Tandems must not jump first. They open a lot higher than the jumpers following them AND the TM student, WITH NO PARACHUTE, is very close to door - I should call it hole because many people remove the plane's door.

Just imagine an unexpected move of the plane at 9000 ft and the student falls. Then?

You are right: minds are like parachutes, they work better when they are open . . . but you should wear and use them


"... this ain't a Nerf world."

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:(
Because you didnt wait at all,141 jumps over 80 with a camera!!!
Not a good scenario,maybe if you rewind your video,or your friends you will see how long you waited.
If the tandem was open directly below you it was for sure because you didnt wait long enough.
Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting!

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You rushed your exit to avoid the cloud.
I think the proper thing to do would have to been to tell the pilot to go around for a second pass because of the cloud cover.



ding ding ding! :)
You left too early after the tandem. The question is why you did, and to be sure that you understand enough not to do it again.

aquila, you could put groups out safely in absolutely any order if you gave enough separation between them.

From this thread and your quantative one, I think that the idea of hitting the cloud further up the jump run scared you enough that you left too early after the tandem.
Don't rush these things dude, leave proper separation and then if your spot is hosed due to cloud cover, ask the pilot for a go around.

If you dont' understand 'proper separation', that's fine! Lots of people don't! ;) Fortunately there are lots of super-experienced people on here that can explain it to you...
You do need to know several things though - Plane speed and direction, upper wind speed & direction and wind speed & direction at opening height. These two 'wind speeds' aren't necessarily the same...

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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When I was hanging out of the door saw a big cloud coming straight to us. I should not wait much to avoid it so that I could keep an eye on the tandem but waited the longest I could considering the conditions.

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You were clearly at fault. You rushed your exit to avoid the cloud. I think the proper thing to do would have to been to tell the pilot to go around for a second pass because of the cloud cover.



hchunter614 posted this earlier and it makes a valid point aguila should look at.
"... this ain't a Nerf world."

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>How long should I have waited?

12-14 seconds, using what you told us and making some basic assumptions. If that's not long enough, wait longer next time.



Here's the deal -

1 - IF there was no wind at all from the ground to the airplane, about 8 seconds would have been fine. It's likely our friend here did wait that long, 8 seconds is pretty automatic unless one just bails right out - but this was a 2-way if I recall so I bet there was some kind of climb out. As a newbie, I think that's a good delay estimate other than being VERY naive about the info the pilot gave. And at 141 jumps, he's still a baby in the sport and this is good chance to learn more.

2 - Exit order in this case is not a single bit part of the issue, but is an interesting separate discussion. But it's the wrong thing to focus on. That said, I hope the DZ does change the policy to what is becoming known as a good exit order.

Lessons learned.

1 - bitching about exit order in order to pass on responsibility for being a newbie is a crappy way to learn. Exit order wasn't the issue here as a tandem before any other type of jump accounts for freefall drift differences due to fall rate differences. so I don't care if he did belly or sit, it doesn't matter for a jump run into the wind.

2 - if a pilot gives a single number for winds aloft, then one has to be skeptical - especially if he says he is doing jumprun "into the wind" (what wind? I thought he said the winds were zero). Winds should be posted for altitude steps - example post wind at the following - 0ft, 3000 ft, 6000 ft, 9000ft, 12000ft, and 15000ft.

3 - it's VERY easy to look out a window or door at altitude and estimate the winds aloft. The slower the plane appears to be moving, the longer the delay. especially when we know the ground winds are zero (having just stood down there)

4 - experienced jumpers do look out and see penetration. When I'm told winds aloft are 'nil' and then I see differently (the plane is crawling), I'll tell the group behind that a longer delay is warranted - especially if they are new to the sport, especially if they are green light lemmings, especially if they are exiting right after me.


So, if aguila waited at least 7-8 seconds, he did it right based on the info given.

HOWEVER, the lesson for someone with only 140 jumps here is to learn about drift and separation, how wind patterns stack up, and to not just take simple information like winds aloft without thinking about it.

I think he was given bad information that was very easy to see it was bad and he was VERY naive (read it as "inexperienced" not stupid) in not being skeptical.

I wouldn't blame a newbie for this one, but I would expect them to learn to keep their head on a swivel, recognize the other traffic, and wait longer on the rest of the day's jumps. Then, go find out about the other stuff.

For an experienced jumpers, I'd say they completely screwed up and need to wake up.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Just to be clear this quote comes from another thread but is quoted from the OP.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2621172;page=1;mh=-1;;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC

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When I was out of the door saw a big cloud coming straight to us. I should not wait much to avoid it so that I could keep an eye on the tandem. The video showed I waited 7 seconds after the tandem before jumping.



If the conditions do not allow you to "wait much" for any reason, whether it be clouds or a long spot or anything else, it sounds like you knew you were leaving too soon. You seemed to feel enough need to "keep an eye on the tandem" to not allow adequate horizontal seperation and it sounds like you know this. Then you failed to "keep an eye on the tandem" anyway and saw them next at 4000 feet with an open canopy below you.

Sounds like a better plan would be to leave the time you need to and worry less about keeping an eye on them on exit if you can't do it in freefall. If you have doubts about the safety of the situation, don't get out of the plane! A go around is a much better solution and I am sure the tandem master would agree.

Good luck to you and all your fellow jumpers.:)
"... this ain't a Nerf world."

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You made some excellent points your post :)
But this one...
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VERY easy to look out a window or door at altitude and estimate the winds aloft.



might be easy for you, but for someone with 140 jumps it is not so easy. I am not saying with a 140 jumps you should not try, because if you don't try, you will never learn. Just saying I doubt many jumpers at that level would notice even a 40kt difference.
Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

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If you dont' understand 'proper separation', that's fine! Lots of people don't! ;) Fortunately there are lots of super-experienced people on here that can explain it to you...


Well, ya... but hej ust simply obviously - won't listen to it. :S Either by sheer ignorance, or more rather, by self-serving purpose and design! The latter however, even if so, actually scares me even worse, taking the collective string of his statements in here. It has become clear (as others have noted) what has happened, but this guy apparently CHOOSES to ignore it all, and THAT is dangerous. I was at first thinking, this guy truly innocently just does not know what it is he is saying, and implying. Maybe his cause is at least noble, that he is looking for support for what he sees and feels is a danger - tandems exiting anything but last. If that were the case, fine - he may just LEARN. Then, I thought no, he must be nothing but a TROLL - and you know what they say about feeding the trolls! ;) But after re-reading this entire thread, I am now coming to the conclusion that he is neither - and THAT IS A CONCERN. Legitimately.

How can someone so clearly CHOOSE to not "hear" ANYONE? Is he "playing" us? I think that HE THINKS SO. But the sad part, is that in the end, it is he that is unfortunately playing himself, and losing out on an opportunity to pick up on important salient concepts it is clear, he just does not grasp. I would not even WASTE MY TIME by re-posting in this thread here again, if it weren't for the comments from OTHERS that the reparte has helped THEM consider some things!

He says that absolutely nobody even asked him about wind speeds or direction etc. until DougH's post #68, as if he is now "calling us all out" or something with this, and that was his real intent all along. :S However, the thread shows that he didn't even ASK anyone how long he SHOULD HAVE waited until his post #35 - which was responded to actually quite clearly, and quite right away, by Bill Von's post only 3 more down at post #38! But like any other of the posts he does not "like" in here, he either tries to attack what he thinks somehow are other jumpers motives (when it is clear HE is the only poster in here with an agenda), or he simply IGNORES it entirely. Except for the OTHERS who have apparently gotten something out of this thread, this guy is maddeningly untenable! >:(

Yes, we are all wasting our time with this one. Except to the extent that it is IN PUBLIC. And the public can much more clearly see what is going on in here. So bottom line then? - THANK YOU, "Aguila", after all, for playing! :o

Blue Skies,
-Grant
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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Sure! Just ask me and I will tell you all I know but how much I waited :)



Ok...when are you going to admit that YOU screwed up and not the tandem? So far, everyone is at fault but you, according to your story.

The tandem has NO control over YOUR skydive. If there was too little separation between you and them, that is YOUR fault as the later jumper - just as someone drifting over the top of YOU would be at fault for not maintaining separation.

Also from the SIM:

C. GROUP SEPARATION ON JUMP RUN
1. Slower-falling jumpers and groups are exposed to
upper headwinds longer and are blown farther downwind
than faster-falling jumpers and groups.
a. Slower-falling groups should exit before fasterfalling
groups if jump run is flown into the wind.


>> You say you were free flying, correct? If so, the tandem was slower falling than you and rightly should go first.

b. On days with strong upper headwinds, allow more
time between groups on the same pass to get sufficient
horizontal separation over the ground.
(1) Provide at least 1,000 feet of ground separation
between individuals jumping solo.
(2) Provide at least 1,500 feet of ground separation
between small groups, adding more as
size of the groups increases.


The bolded, above, is where you failed in your planning.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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:(
Because you didnt wait at all,141 jumps over 80 with a camera!!!
Not a good scenario,maybe if you rewind your video,or your friends you will see how long you waited.
If the tandem was open directly below you it was for sure because you didnt wait long enough.



I understand you might find it very difficult to use a camera while skydiving. No problem! I have ever seen people who find it very difficult to know what they are talking about.

Have you ever considered that not all is about jumps number? You might find it a lot easier if you read the camera owner's manual first.

BTW. I was not using any camera during that jump ;)

Blue skies!
Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

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Ok...when are you going to admit that YOU screwed up and not the tandem?.



When you make the USPA change their official statment in regard to exit order: http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:fKbgg5fOqNIJ:https://www.uspa.org/safety/safetyday/SafetyDayGuidelines2006.pdf+tandem+exit+o ... you tell me ;)
Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

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How long did you wait?

Sorry if I misssed you posting your answer. :)



Thank you for your patience. Most of you already know how much I waited because the poll suddenly changed. I waited 7 seconds.
Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

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How long did you wait?

Sorry if I misssed you posting your answer. :)



Thank you for your patience. Most of you already know how much I waited because the poll suddenly changed. I waited 7 seconds.



How is it we're supposed to know it was your vote that suddenly changed the poll?
Rules are rules, and official or not, rules aren't there to enforce what is or isn't safe. Rules are mere guidelines that provide information from which decisions are made.
As a physician, have you not ever come across a situation where the "rules" said to do one thing, but your instinct, training, experience, and prudence tells you to move beyond the rules and go with what is right?
Rules also say you shouldn't have a camera on your head. Is it OK to decide which rules apply to you and which rules don't? I hated waiting, but my DZO wouldn't let me bend the rules found in the USPA SIM.
You're missing the point, it seems. Ultimately, the rules wouldn't have saved you or the tandem in the event of an incident. You were there calling the spot, and you chose to exit. You were after the tandem, and therefore in control of the situation. the tandem can't move away from the cloud, and if the tandem took "too long" to get out before the cloud that you didn't want to jump in, you are totally in control. Whether the pilot *wants* to do a go-around or not, it's still your option to exit (or not).
You are absolutely in control of your exit point.

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