RossDagley 0 #1 April 7, 2005 Well, just had the worst call I've had in a while. The CCI at my DZ has just called to say after spending most of yesterday phoning around that I'm not allowed to do AFF in the UK. The BPA have ruled that even though I'm 'able bodied', because of the problem with my elbow and shoulder where I cant reach the standard BOC (on the right) I cant do AFF. The fact they could modify a rig to leg strap throwout or left hand BOC they're not interested in - saying if I was to damage my left arm on exit, I'd be up shit street. I have about 75% strength in my right arm, just limited mobility (almost none) behind my back - all other functions are fine. Left arm is probably fractionally stronger to compensate. If you met me, you'd never know. Until I showed you. My Instructors advice was to contact the USPA as they are less anal about things, and allow for peoples desire (the BPA would ban skydiving if they could...) My question to you guys is does anyone have any idea where I can start? Who can I contact within the USPA to talk about this, where in the world I can go to get my training, that sort of thing. I see posts here with paraplegics doing AFF - I really cant see why I cant. My budget will now be impacted by the BPAs ruling - if I've got to fly to the states to train, or to South Africa, then that comes out of my budget unfortunately, so closer and cheaper is better. Oh dont worry - the BPA are happy for me to jump with modified gear once off student status (and Aerodyne have come to the rescure and already offered to build a left hand BOC) - I guess they dont want me to go splat on student gear... I'm gutted. Totally. I've built myself up for this so much to have it snatched away at this stage is horrible. I've done 4 tandems in the last month because I'm not allowed to do anything else - I *refuse* to give up now. Someone help. Please? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #2 April 7, 2005 Hi Ross. What worries instructors about things like this is the "I told you so." factor in the event of an incident or injury. It's easy to see how a small issue with your gear could result in a really unhappy series of events which the DZ or instructor or governing body (BPA) would need to answer for. I think that the major hurdle would be the student. If I have a student who can understand the risks and is prepaired to put the time and the training in to overcome them, then there is hope. Next hurdle is, of course, the equipment. If you were to modify club student equipment, then there is always either the risk of some "regular" student using the modified equipment - and the consequences of that happening. Alternately the down time on that rig being unavailable to anyone but you during the time your training is conducted plus the cost of modification. A paraplegic has no difficulties in reaching or pulling handles. Their risk is simply a landing risk - and that is a risk we all share to some degree. In South Africa, we are still doing AFF with ripcord activated rigs. The ripcord sits on the right hip - and should be easily accesable from your description of your limited mobility. Alternately the rig could be modified to ripcord deployment from the left hand BOC position, and the cost of throwing the handle factored into the course. On completion of AFF, you would convert to a BOC, and at this point I suggest several harness hold jumps and plenty of ground practice to overcome any negative muscle memory while you practice your left hand deployment if the gear you used as a student was unmodified. If Aerodyne do build you a rig, ask for their "breakaway" BOC pouch so that a JM or fellow jumper can intervene if required. Reserve drills would remain the same and require no modification of gear. Since you're down 25% on power in your right arm, I'd suggest large rings, non stainless hardware and excellent maintenance of the cutaway system. Aerodyne's "Miniforce" rings may give enough benefit to offset their being made of stainless. If you have difficulty deploying your main, your reserve sounds accesable to both your hands, so the "one arm disabled" arguement seems void. For obvious reasons, I'd suggest the use of an AAD on all your gear. Due to the added expenses involved in this endevour, and should you choose to try this in South Africa, I wouldn't charge what I usually get paid for AFF, and would do the dives for the slot/packjob only. If you're interested, I'll run it by our CI and the head of National Safety and Training. No promises, but if you're keen, I'll do what I can. There is no shortage of people who say why things should not be done. If something can be done safely, or with acceptable risk, and the process passes a review of the instructors peers, it is worth consideration. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RossDagley 0 #3 April 7, 2005 Quote I think that the major hurdle would be the student. If I have a student who can understand the risks and is prepaired to put the time and the training in to overcome them, then there is hope. I totally agree. I understand there is a 'greater' risk. Presuming I do 1000 perfect jumps with no problems, when the 1 jump comes up where I need my right arm (for reserve/cutaway whatever) I'm confident I've got the strength and presence of mind to be able to use it. This is a sport where we all risk our lives do do what we love - my risk is just a little different to the norm. QuoteNext hurdle is, of course, the equipment. If you were to modify club student equipment, then there is always either the risk of some "regular" student using the modified equipment - and the consequences of that happening. Alternately the down time on that rig being unavailable to anyone but you during the time your training is conducted plus the cost of modification. Agreed here too - thats why AFF seemed the logical choice - I could pay a rigger to 'convert' a student rig, and the DZ sould keep it seperate to their other student gear. Because it's AFF, I could (in theory) have the course completed in a short space of time, so 'downtime' is reduced. I understand this involves a reduction of their available gear, and I'd be happy to compensate them accordingly whilst I'm using it. QuoteIn South Africa, we are still doing AFF with ripcord activated rigs. The ripcord sits on the right hip - and should be easily accesable from your description of your limited mobility. Alternately the rig could be modified to ripcord deployment from the left hand BOC position, and the cost of throwing the handle factored into the course. Yes - the leg strap throwout was an option my CCI was trying to look into - I have no problem reaching my hip whatsoever (whilst arched my movement is limited to my right bum cheek - I cant get 'higher' up my back than that, but hip and waistband are fine) QuoteIf Aerodyne do build you a rig, ask for their "breakaway" BOC pouch so that a JM or fellow jumper can intervene if required. Can you tell me a bit more about this? Is this the same as a freefly handle? (excuse my lack of knowledge) or is it like the student rigs with a normal toggle and a 'pouch' on the opposite side? I'll mention it to Aubrey when I next speak to him. QuoteIf you have difficulty deploying your main, your reserve sounds accesable to both your hands, so the "one arm disabled" arguement seems void. For obvious reasons, I'd suggest the use of an AAD on all your gear. Yes - I can get to the reserve handle and cutaway poouch with both hands without issue, with either hand. I'm confident I'd be fine even if I had to use my right arm/hand to pull the reserve (across my chest). A cypres would be on my rig without question. QuoteDue to the added expenses involved in this endevour, and should you choose to try this in South Africa, I wouldn't charge what I usually get paid for AFF, and would do the dives for the slot/packjob only. If you're interested, I'll run it by our CI and the head of National Safety and Training. No promises, but if you're keen, I'll do what I can. I'm genuinely touched at that statement. Thats an incredibly kind offer, and most gratefully received. I would be indebted to you if you could investigate it in SA for me - as for the offer of training thats what touched me. Thank you for your kind offer and I'm sure we would come to some (beer) arrangement. I am extremely keen (my CCI told me he was pretty cut up about snubbing someone with my enthuasm) and want to get the ball moving - I just hate hitting these damn brick walls of red-tape. Thanks again Tonto. If anyone else has any advice, I'm keeping my ears fully open - I'll do this any way I can and you guys are far more knowledgable than I can hope to be. Any advice is gratefully received. Ross Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RossDagley 0 #4 April 7, 2005 Okay. I've spoken to the USPA, and they don't see any issues with me jumping so long as the instructor is happy to modify a BOC rig. They said the alternative is to jump as a student with a ripcord rig, and then transfer onto my own gear when its built. Which poses the question, why cant i do this in the UK? I've contacted the BPA's National Coach & Safety Officer, John Hitchen, and he didn't see an issue with it, but apparently it rests with their medical advisor. I'm awaiting his call back. Its almost funny - THE BPA are saying there’s no legislation stopping me from jumping. The USPA are saying there’s no legislation stopping me from jumping. My instructor (who’s the CCI at my DZ) want to teach me and is happy with the modifications needed, but a single chap who advises the BPA (who's never met me or assessed my mobility) is saying no. Surely there's something wrong with this picture Thanks for the PM's of support so far guys (and gals). I really hope I can sort something out here in the UK as the nightmare of travelling abroad is one I’m not looking forward to… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RossDagley 0 #5 April 7, 2005 Apparently it *doesnt* rest with the medical advisor He phoned back to say it rested with the safety board, to which I can have no input. So here I am going round in circles. Thanks a bunch BPA. Desperate to get members, and forcing me abroad... Anyway, looks like I'll be taking a holiday soon. DeLand is looking attractive (thanks to DisneyWorld ) as is Empuriabrava (thanks Wendy for the tip) - The very kind offer from Tonto is also an option, but the JoBerg DZ is only open weekends, so I'd be stuck mid-week. its just a matter of who will take me under their wing and offer to help I guess... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #6 April 7, 2005 Contact Jim Wallace twowhodive_AT_aol.com Jim, just recently retrained Chuck Anderson after many years of layoff. Chuck has a right hook and Jim modified one of their student rigs for a left main pull. Chuck was getting out of the sport when I was getting into it. I bought my first rig from Chuck. (It's that green rig on the guy in the yellow jumpsuit from the link above. 21 ft Piglett & 26 ft Navy Con if anyone wants to know. R3 cutaways too) Jim is at Perris Valley skydiving in Southern California. There is a tunnel on the DZ, plus a jet, plus a Skyvan, plus 3 otters, plus a bar, plus a pool, plus bunkhouse and the IHOP. Oh yeah - we have a Disneyland out here too. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RossDagley 0 #7 April 7, 2005 Thanks for that. I've dropped him an email. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BillyVance 34 #8 April 8, 2005 QuoteApparently it *doesnt* rest with the medical advisor He phoned back to say it rested with the safety board, to which I can have no input. So here I am going round in circles. Thanks a bunch BPA. Desperate to get members, and forcing me abroad... Those bloody wankers! You can be trained safely. THEY just don't want to deal with it. Wussies... I say. Come on over to the good ol' USA, we'll make you feel right at home. I know a thing or two about discrimination against handicapped... Russia refuses to allow any deaf people to learn to skydive. Italy refused recently to allow one Italian deaf skydiver earn his license, even though he'd made almost 100 jumps. Well, I got him to contact USPA, and guess what? He got a USPA membership AND license! Here in the USA, all things are possible where skydiving is concerned... "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RossDagley 0 #9 April 8, 2005 Well, from bad to good Thanks everyone (genuinely) for all your kind words, especially the people via PM with suggestions etc. Thanks to Tonto giving me the confidence to continue when I was at such a low ebb, I've spent the best part of the last 24 hours phoning about trying to see whats available. Turns out, pretty much everywhere will take me - except the UK. Well, in the immortal words of Cartman "Screw you guys". I've today ordered a complete new rig with left-hand deploy from Aerodyne. Maximum thanks to Aubrey for helping with the custom order, and the custom BOC. Looks like its going to take 8-10 weeks to make, but thats not a problem - turns out it will tie into some plans I better start making! Big thanks to Lara from Alti2, who put me in touch with Bob at Skydive DeLand. After speaking to Bob this morning, he's 100% confident we can get this sorted, even going as far as to say he's pretty sure he's already got a rig I can use (left hand deploy!) for student training. What a result. I'm probably going to have Aerodyne ship the rig direct to DeLand where I'll train on their student gear, then get transitioned on site onto my own gear, getting as many jumps on it as I can over there, then bring it back into the UK myself, saving shipping. The flight/hotel prices are good at the moment, and the exchange rate is so good that the cost actually only works out about £200 more to do it in the US as opposed to here. Plus I get a holiday thrown in I'll be taking my mum as someone to go with as she's never been to Disneyland or SeaWorld etc, so it looks like its all going to work out rather nicely after all. The build time of the rig will also give me enough time to get other stuff like my custom alti ordered (through the Skydive Deland gear store) and I can simply collect it there. Like I said, from a nightmare yesterday (where I'd never felt so gutted at being told I cant do this) to today is amazing. Thank you all for your help. So much. I couldn't have done all this without you - and your support for a newbie like me is great. Thanks again guys and gals. You've got me now - the hard part is gonna be trying to get rid of me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites laraatalti2 0 #10 April 11, 2005 Good luck Ross, and have fun!! You can accidentally call us at the wrong number anytime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RossDagley 0 #11 April 11, 2005 Hey, if the staff at these wrong numbers sound as nice as the one I got the other day, I'll be misdialling more often Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NickDG 23 #12 April 25, 2005 From my own experience (the BPA's stance on BASE jumping) and from what many Brits have relayed to me, the BPA are a bunch of fuddy duddies . . . There are many DZs here in the States that would go out of their way to help you. Look at the USA skydiving group called "The Pieces of Eight," they are all amputees! Look at this friend of mine at http://zerop.net/base/ Why you fellows haven't overthrown the BPA is beyond me . . . Good luck to you and please keep us posted. NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RossDagley 0 #13 April 26, 2005 Thanks very much. Looks like I'm all on course - I'm planning to visit DeLand last week in June/ 1st week in July for my AFF, but I've found a loophole in the BPA regs (kinda!). I've now done 9 tandems (because I thought it was all I could do) so my freefall time is at least better than a new AFF student, and my canopy control is... er... doable I haven't killed my TI yet! However, I spoke to the CCI at my home DZ about doing static line/RAPS - nothing stopping me just doing the first 3 levels with no intention of ever progressing into freefall - IE, just the static line jumps to gain canopy time, and the sensation of jumping on my own. I'm figuring I'll have a head start if I can get 30 minutes in the tunnel and have done (say) 5-6 static line jumps by the time I visit DeLand for the AFF course. Plus, it means I actually get to do jumps! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NickDG 23 #14 April 26, 2005 Sounds as if you got it knocked . . . And some lucky AFF Instructor somewhere is about to get a dream student. NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
BillyVance 34 #8 April 8, 2005 QuoteApparently it *doesnt* rest with the medical advisor He phoned back to say it rested with the safety board, to which I can have no input. So here I am going round in circles. Thanks a bunch BPA. Desperate to get members, and forcing me abroad... Those bloody wankers! You can be trained safely. THEY just don't want to deal with it. Wussies... I say. Come on over to the good ol' USA, we'll make you feel right at home. I know a thing or two about discrimination against handicapped... Russia refuses to allow any deaf people to learn to skydive. Italy refused recently to allow one Italian deaf skydiver earn his license, even though he'd made almost 100 jumps. Well, I got him to contact USPA, and guess what? He got a USPA membership AND license! Here in the USA, all things are possible where skydiving is concerned... "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RossDagley 0 #9 April 8, 2005 Well, from bad to good Thanks everyone (genuinely) for all your kind words, especially the people via PM with suggestions etc. Thanks to Tonto giving me the confidence to continue when I was at such a low ebb, I've spent the best part of the last 24 hours phoning about trying to see whats available. Turns out, pretty much everywhere will take me - except the UK. Well, in the immortal words of Cartman "Screw you guys". I've today ordered a complete new rig with left-hand deploy from Aerodyne. Maximum thanks to Aubrey for helping with the custom order, and the custom BOC. Looks like its going to take 8-10 weeks to make, but thats not a problem - turns out it will tie into some plans I better start making! Big thanks to Lara from Alti2, who put me in touch with Bob at Skydive DeLand. After speaking to Bob this morning, he's 100% confident we can get this sorted, even going as far as to say he's pretty sure he's already got a rig I can use (left hand deploy!) for student training. What a result. I'm probably going to have Aerodyne ship the rig direct to DeLand where I'll train on their student gear, then get transitioned on site onto my own gear, getting as many jumps on it as I can over there, then bring it back into the UK myself, saving shipping. The flight/hotel prices are good at the moment, and the exchange rate is so good that the cost actually only works out about £200 more to do it in the US as opposed to here. Plus I get a holiday thrown in I'll be taking my mum as someone to go with as she's never been to Disneyland or SeaWorld etc, so it looks like its all going to work out rather nicely after all. The build time of the rig will also give me enough time to get other stuff like my custom alti ordered (through the Skydive Deland gear store) and I can simply collect it there. Like I said, from a nightmare yesterday (where I'd never felt so gutted at being told I cant do this) to today is amazing. Thank you all for your help. So much. I couldn't have done all this without you - and your support for a newbie like me is great. Thanks again guys and gals. You've got me now - the hard part is gonna be trying to get rid of me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
laraatalti2 0 #10 April 11, 2005 Good luck Ross, and have fun!! You can accidentally call us at the wrong number anytime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RossDagley 0 #11 April 11, 2005 Hey, if the staff at these wrong numbers sound as nice as the one I got the other day, I'll be misdialling more often Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NickDG 23 #12 April 25, 2005 From my own experience (the BPA's stance on BASE jumping) and from what many Brits have relayed to me, the BPA are a bunch of fuddy duddies . . . There are many DZs here in the States that would go out of their way to help you. Look at the USA skydiving group called "The Pieces of Eight," they are all amputees! Look at this friend of mine at http://zerop.net/base/ Why you fellows haven't overthrown the BPA is beyond me . . . Good luck to you and please keep us posted. NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RossDagley 0 #13 April 26, 2005 Thanks very much. Looks like I'm all on course - I'm planning to visit DeLand last week in June/ 1st week in July for my AFF, but I've found a loophole in the BPA regs (kinda!). I've now done 9 tandems (because I thought it was all I could do) so my freefall time is at least better than a new AFF student, and my canopy control is... er... doable I haven't killed my TI yet! However, I spoke to the CCI at my home DZ about doing static line/RAPS - nothing stopping me just doing the first 3 levels with no intention of ever progressing into freefall - IE, just the static line jumps to gain canopy time, and the sensation of jumping on my own. I'm figuring I'll have a head start if I can get 30 minutes in the tunnel and have done (say) 5-6 static line jumps by the time I visit DeLand for the AFF course. Plus, it means I actually get to do jumps! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NickDG 23 #14 April 26, 2005 Sounds as if you got it knocked . . . And some lucky AFF Instructor somewhere is about to get a dream student. NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
RossDagley 0 #11 April 11, 2005 Hey, if the staff at these wrong numbers sound as nice as the one I got the other day, I'll be misdialling more often Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #12 April 25, 2005 From my own experience (the BPA's stance on BASE jumping) and from what many Brits have relayed to me, the BPA are a bunch of fuddy duddies . . . There are many DZs here in the States that would go out of their way to help you. Look at the USA skydiving group called "The Pieces of Eight," they are all amputees! Look at this friend of mine at http://zerop.net/base/ Why you fellows haven't overthrown the BPA is beyond me . . . Good luck to you and please keep us posted. NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RossDagley 0 #13 April 26, 2005 Thanks very much. Looks like I'm all on course - I'm planning to visit DeLand last week in June/ 1st week in July for my AFF, but I've found a loophole in the BPA regs (kinda!). I've now done 9 tandems (because I thought it was all I could do) so my freefall time is at least better than a new AFF student, and my canopy control is... er... doable I haven't killed my TI yet! However, I spoke to the CCI at my home DZ about doing static line/RAPS - nothing stopping me just doing the first 3 levels with no intention of ever progressing into freefall - IE, just the static line jumps to gain canopy time, and the sensation of jumping on my own. I'm figuring I'll have a head start if I can get 30 minutes in the tunnel and have done (say) 5-6 static line jumps by the time I visit DeLand for the AFF course. Plus, it means I actually get to do jumps! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #14 April 26, 2005 Sounds as if you got it knocked . . . And some lucky AFF Instructor somewhere is about to get a dream student. NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
