Complete rig for noob

[nikaru 1]

I know there are hundreds of discussions around this topic (maybe more) but I haven't found any specific recommendation for my particular situation.

I want to buy my first complete system (I have 30 jumps and I will be getting my A license soon) but I am not sure I am ready to afford a new complete system for 6000+$ (or not wanting to get killed by my girlfriend when she finds out) so I am thinking about a second hand rig. At the same time I am safety obsessed guy who is not going to risk his life (even a little bit) just to save some bucks. So I'm looking for something that is affordable but at the same time not older than me (I'm 25 years old), compatible with every modern safety features, something that is appropriate for someone who still have long way to learn, downsize, try different styles, canopies, etc. and the most importantly - without sacrificing safety in any way.

I have seen some containers on sell DOM 1986 and reserve canopies DOM 1987. Although they may seems jumpable and are checked by a master rigger, something inside me is not entirely sure that the fabrics, metal rings, stitches, etc. manufactured or made some 2 decades ago has the same strength as newer one. So I'm also not thinking about buying something that old or canopy with patches or with more than 300 jumps on it.

So my question is what is (according to your personal opinion) the best price range for second hand rig that can serve me well and without problem for the next 300-500 or so jumps? Also, any recommendation of appropriate DOM for container, main canopy and reserve I should be looking for in this price range would be helpful? Maybe new container and reserve but a second hand main and AAD?

Thank you in advance for your recommendations...

[likestojump 3]

This has been beaten to a pulp, resurrected, and then beaten again.

However, in the interests of help, here are some very generic guidelines :

Most things made in the past 15 or so years are going to be more or less modern. The exceptions would be some Racer models (this is a completely different topic, but no matter how people preach the Racer to you, the resale value is shit), Dolphins, and some oddball Euro-manufacturers.

If you want a hard and fast rule - go with the major manufacturer container, a PD or an Aerodyne reserve, and a PD or an Aerodyne or an Icarus canopy, and your only concern should be gear condition and the price. In fact if you are super AR, just stick with PD made mains and reserves, just be ready to pony up a few extra dollars.

That's as generic as I can keep it.

good luck, and don't cheap out, or you will be chasing those 1986 Vector rigs with 5 cell Swift reserves until you are blue in a face.

PS Oh, and see what people WITH EXPERIENCE say. You are opening up the floodgates for a bunch of low experience jumpers, who have owned 1-2 rigs in their career, to start chiming in and praying to the only manufacturer they have ever dealt with. Hardly an unbiased or a useful opinion.

[lyosha 46]

likestojump

no matter how people preach the Racer to you, the resale value is shit

HOW DARE YOU INSULT THE ONE TRUE RIG!

on a more serious note... Icarus reserves are bad?

[likestojump 3]

lyosha

***no matter how people preach the Racer to you, the resale value is shit

HOW DARE YOU INSULT THE ONE TRUE RIG!

on a more serious note... Icarus reserves are bad?

No idea, but definitely not as well proven as PD or Aerodyne.

[nikaru 1]

likestojump

This has been beaten to a pulp, resurrected, and then beaten again.

However, in the interests of help, here are some very generic guidelines :

Most things made in the past 15 or so years are going to be more or less modern. The exceptions would be some Racer models (this is a completely different topic, but no matter how people preach the Racer to you, the resale value is shit), Dolphins, and some oddball Euro-manufacturers.

If you want a hard and fast rule - go with the major manufacturer container, a PD or an Aerodyne reserve, and a PD or an Aerodyne or an Icarus canopy, and your only concern should be gear condition and the price. In fact if you are super AR, just stick with PD made mains and reserves, just be ready to pony up a few extra dollars.

That's as generic as I can keep it.

good luck, and don't cheap out, or you will be chasing those 1986 Vector rigs with 5 cell Swift reserves until you are blue in a face.

PS Oh, and see what people WITH EXPERIENCE say. You are opening up the floodgates for a bunch of low experience jumpers, who have owned 1-2 rigs in their career, to start chiming in and praying to the only manufacturer they have ever dealt with. Hardly an unbiased or a useful opinion.

Thank you for your comment.

I was particularly avoiding to mention brands and models to spare us from some long life discussions. My question is a bit more generic since I want to know what is the reasonable price range I must be looking at in order to find a modern sustem with few jumps that would be able to offer me the same internal comfort as a new one with the exception of the perfect fit and shine that comes with new canopies and container. I know 4000$ is always better than 3000$ but there should be some sweet spot where you can say for example "Look, with 3500$ if you are lucky you can find a decent and modern system with many jumps ahead. For this price you should be looking at something with less than a couple of 100 jumps and manufactured in the last 6 years." Thats all Im looking for...a personal opinion.

[likestojump 3]

$3500 to $4500 for something that will be newer and will have most bells and whistles.
$2500 to $3500 for still modern, but older, still safe, but higher jump numbers.

Be ready to tell people to get a reality check when they are offering you "mint condition 1993 gear with only 300 jumps" for $3K.

[gowlerk 1,904]

likestojump

$3500 to $4500 for something that will be newer and will have most bells and whistles.
$2500 to $3500 for still modern, but older, still safe, but higher jump numbers.

Be ready to tell people to get a reality check when they are offering you "mint condition 1993 gear with only 300 jumps" for $3K.

^^^This^^^

Plus I often tell people to just bite the bullet and buy a brand new AAD. That's because people selling used rigs often just move their AAD to the new rig and sell it without one. So you end up needing one anyway. When you are ready to move on to a newer rig you will do the same. You never have to worry about being stuck with too many AADs. There is far more demand than supply for used ones and they sell quickly.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[xijonix 0]

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$3500 to $4500 for something that will be newer and will have most bells and whistles.
$2500 to $3500 for still modern, but older, still safe, but higher jump numbers.

Be ready to tell people to get a reality check when they are offering you "mint condition 1993 gear with only 300 jumps" for $3K.

Piggybacking off of this: Just because someone else is willing to overpay for gear doesn't mean that you should. Supply and demand change with the seasons so be aware what the real value of the gear you're buying.

[Unstable 8]

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Figure out what you can afford to spend and then see what is available in that price range. If you can reasonably afford to shell out $2000 you should have no problem finding a system in that price range. It may be older but it will still be serviceable. For example I just went on one site and they had a 1997 Talon with a Sabre 150 and a Raven I asking 1800. That's kinda high so you've got some room to negotiate.

Best advice in this thread! There is nothing wrong with older gear, given that it was maintained correctly and in good, serviceable condition. I know riggers that get uncomfortable seeing anything older than 8 years old, but I've seen 20 year old equipment in better condition and safer than a practically new rig that has been abused by its owner.

I noticed that this thread made it 1 or 2 posting before someone started hollering about Racers. OK, I won't throw my opinion out there, but talk to your rigger. If you have a rigger that is comfortable taking care of one, and the price is right, don't be afraid, they will take care of you.

=========Shaun ==========

[JohnMitchell 14]

Iago

It may be older but it will still be serviceable. For example I just went on one site and they had a 1997 Talon with a Sabre 150 and a Raven I asking 1800. That's kinda high so you've got some room to negotiate.

Good advice there. Nothing wrong with some of the older reserves. They are tested each pack job and rarely used, and I really don't think they vary much in quality.

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I will say that you should probably take the AAD out of the equation for now. There are very few used AADs for sale out there and most people just move theirs to their new rig so you will probably have to buy that separately.

A new AAD is a good investment. I recommend Vigil for it's lower cost/year and convenience of ownership. Our family all jumps them. If you buy a used one, remember that they have an expiration date, and you'll want to calculate how much value is left in the unit.

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Discounting anything with over 300 jumps is probably going to up your budget quite a bit. Mains can last well over a thousand jumps (sometimes two) with proper care. Plus environment is a big factor- 600 jumps in Eloy is quite a bit harsher than 600 jumps in Florida or Georgia.

Absolutely. Just realize that, just as cars need new tires occasionally, main parachutes need new lines every 800 jumps or so. Figure that into your price. But it's not unusual to get 2K jumps from a modern zero porosity main parachute.

Avoid any of the old F-111 parachutes from the 80's. They're good for only 1K jumps at best. Best used as car covers anymore.

[sammielu 3]

likestojump

$3500 to $4500 for something that will be newer and will have most bells and whistles.
$2500 to $3500 for still modern, but older, still safe, but higher jump numbers.

Be ready to tell people to get a reality check when they are offering you "mint condition 1993 gear with only 300 jumps" for $3K.

All this looks right to me, with an AAD separate for newer or nicer condition gear, or a used AAD included for not so new/clean, etc.

It's good to have an idea about budget. Gear should drive your budget, though, not the other way around. Decide on the minimum size reserve you want to be on in a worst case scenario and look for containers/reserves that match that. Look in this order: container, reserve, main, AAD. Learn the complete list of which components that go with a container vs with a main.
Consider buying a used container that is the right width for your shoulders (yoke) and length for you to reach handles, and sending the container to the manufacturer for a new harness custom to your body (about $500). Vector, Infinity, and Javelin containers in particular are easy to get harness mods on (not much experience with others).

However you approach it, keep jumping in the meantime!!! Skydivers jump, stuff collectors buy thing after thing and don't get to the dz much (but might sell you their stuff in 10 years :).

[wmw999 2,120]

I would only resize a harness if it's seriously off. Really. I'm currently jumping gear that would never be sized for me. I have about 1300 jumps on it; it's comfortable enough, secure enough (it's tighter than would be considered ideal).

If you're on a budget, buy used gear that:
1. Has appropriately sized canopies that are in good shape. Doesn't have to be modern or fast (i.e. Sabre 1 can be a fine choice under some circumstances).
2. The harness will allow you to move in all directions, will hold you in securely, and doesn't allow the container to move around a lot.
3. The container should be free fly-friendly. If nothing else, because people expect it any more, and will be more likely to understand it when pin-checking. But anything built since about 1998 is freefly-friendly. That's not a tall bar.

If you're on a budget, invest your money in jumps, not in perfect gear. Make it safe, and make it good enough. The. You won't be worried about PLF-Ing a landing, or landing in the mud if it's safest. You'll understand that your gear is there to protect you, and not the other way around.

Then, after you have some jumps and know which rig you think is coolest or whatever, you can invest more money in a new rig.
Or just keep jumping the same one, and replace the canopies periodically.

It's only gear. It doesn't make you a better skydiver, or make you look cool. You're in charge of that.

Wendy P.
(Sometimes curmudgeonly)

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[keithbar 1]

Maybe one of these days I own a custom made for me rig. as far as canopies I feel about them like I do cars and trucks. I'll let somebody else take the new depreciation.

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

[Joellercoaster 6]

wmw999

It's only gear. It doesn't make you a better skydiver, or make you look cool.

It totally makes you look cool

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?