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NeoX

Réunion airport security thought AAD is explosive device and made me put rig in the hold

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Yesterday, I went through security with my rig as hand luggage at Saint-Denis (Roland Garros) Airport in Réunion Island and security officers didn't recognise the main unit of my Vigil AAD on the X-ray scan. As a result, me and my girlfriend were taken into the nearby security office where we were questioned by several officers including the airport Chief of Security. He said that the unidentified object looks like an explosive device and insisted that my rig be put in the hold. We explained that the device is part of the advanced technology that exists in all modern parachutes and that subjecting the equipment to baggage handling (handlers accidentally pulling and repacking my reserve, playing rugby with it, throwing it haphazardly, etc.) could result in my equipment failing the next time I skydive which could potentially result in my death unless I have the reserve repacked (and who would pay that?). He said that "It's sad but that's the way it is." They said that if the check-in desk closed, then I would not be able to take my rig with me at all. So I was forced to do as they said to save the potential hassle of having to try and get a new flight at no cost or paying for it and then having to make a claim, etc., etc. I'm sure you can imagine how difficult it would've been for me to assign blame and responsibility among the parties involved (security, the airline, etc.).

I was infuriated by the way the whole matter was dealt with, not least their incompetence and I ensured they knew this inasmuch as it wasn't really about security, but more about their incompetence to not recognise what parachute equipment looks like. I have travelled with my rig out of London, Dubai and Mauritius, and never had this problem. My view is that security personnel are supposed to be trained on what various items including popular sports equipment should look like. The fact that not one of the numerous officers there recognised it is worrying. It is even more worrying that not one of them could speak English! My girlfriend had to translate from French for me, which made the whole palaver even more painful. B|

Has anyone else had similar problems, particularly in France (Réunion is technically part of France)? Who should I complain to? I can complain to the airport and/or the airport security authority, but should I also complain to the tourist board, the council, the FFP, anyone else?

I note that Vigil provide an X-ray card - would this be sufficient in future?

There are a number of other documents on the Vigil website here including an EU Classification document and DGAC - French Authorization letters. Réunion is in the EU incidentally. But it's interesting that these documents are also in French!

Any advice would be appreciated here as I am planning on going to Réunion at least once every month in the future.
He's doing his Superman thing.

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NeoX



I note that Vigil provide an X-ray card - would this be sufficient in future?

There are a number of other documents on the Vigil website here including an EU Classification document and DGAC - French Authorization letters. Réunion is in the EU incidentally. But it's interesting that these documents are also in French!



Did you have any of these documents with you? I am assuming you didn't and that they only had your word to go on? I would make sure the next time you have all of the documentation with you to show. When I flew with my rig I got pulled aside on the way home, once I showed them the Vigil xray card they let me through.

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Absolutely carry the XRay card and documentation.

There's an official letter from the CAA on the BPA website explaining that the Cypres isn't an exempted item. I don't believe suce a letter exists for other manufacturers.


That said, I just put mine into a locked hard case and then into the hold anyway. It's insured... why wouldn't you?
IMO trying to take a rig as carry-on is just adding stress to travelling. I can live without it.

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yoink

That said, I just put mine into a locked hard case and then into the hold anyway. It's insured... why wouldn't you?
IMO trying to take a rig as carry-on is just adding stress to travelling. I can live without it.



If the entire purpose of my trip is to skydive, and my rig gets lost or destroyed, my vacation is ruined, insurance or not.

You may also want to look into how much insurance the airlines offer. You will probably get nowhere near what the rig is worth.
"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

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NeoX



I note that Vigil provide an X-ray card - would this be sufficient in future?

There are a number of other documents on the Vigil website here including an EU Classification document and DGAC - French Authorization letters. Réunion is in the EU incidentally. But it's interesting that these documents are also in French!

Any advice would be appreciated here as I am planning on going to Réunion at least once every month in the future.



Advice? Include some 'planning'. Like bring the documents provided to help with security, learning French since your visiting French territory rather than expecting everyone else in the world to learn your language, AND be prepared for the rig to be opened or not allowed on the airplane at all! (as TSA in the U.S. reserves the right to do). While this doesn't happen very often it can.

And not surprising that documents from a French agency and French.speaking company are in French.:S
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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NeoX

, but more about their incompetence to not recognise what parachute equipment looks like.



Definitely always travel with the x ray card.

As for them not knowing what parachute equipment looks like it should not be expected. I worked for the Canadian airport security for 4 years and not once did I see any parachute equipment come through.The training they are provided says yes parachutes are allowed but does not say anything about AAD's. Yes an AAD going through an x ray looks exactly like a bomb they are trained to detect. So always have the x ray card from the manufacturer with you.

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councilman24

***

I note that Vigil provide an X-ray card - would this be sufficient in future?

There are a number of other documents on the Vigil website here including an EU Classification document and DGAC - French Authorization letters. Réunion is in the EU incidentally. But it's interesting that these documents are also in French!

Any advice would be appreciated here as I am planning on going to Réunion at least once every month in the future.



Advice? Include some 'planning'. Like bring the documents provided to help with security, learning French since your visiting French territory rather than expecting everyone else in the world to learn your language, AND be prepared for the rig to be opened or not allowed on the airplane at all! (as TSA in the U.S. reserves the right to do). While this doesn't happen very often it can.

And not surprising that documents from a French agency and French.speaking company are in French.:S

I'm not sure if you're just being arrogant or completely obtuse. I wasn't aware of the documents till after the trip since I have never had trouble taking my rig on board previously - this was made very clear in my original post. Now I'm aware of them, I will take them. The purpose of my post was to seek advice based on what I'd found - no need for you to be offensive about it.

Saying I should learn French is also an absolutely absurd remark to say. Do you learn the language of every country you go on holiday to, Mr American Boy? I seriously doubt it! It's a generally-accepted rule that anyone working in the travel industry should speak English as this is the global lingua franca. My girlfriend who is Mauritian (native language is Créole) and works in the travel industry confirms this.

And why is it not surprising that the documents listed on the Vigil website are in French? Correct it's not surprising that documents from a French agency are in French. But I think you completely missed my point. What's surprising is that documents on Vigil's webpage concerning airport security worldwide (which is country-agnostic) are from a French agency/in French.
He's doing his Superman thing.

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NeoX

******

I note that Vigil provide an X-ray card - would this be sufficient in future?

There are a number of other documents on the Vigil website here including an EU Classification document and DGAC - French Authorization letters. Réunion is in the EU incidentally. But it's interesting that these documents are also in French!

Any advice would be appreciated here as I am planning on going to Réunion at least once every month in the future.



Advice? Include some 'planning'. Like bring the documents provided to help with security, learning French since your visiting French territory rather than expecting everyone else in the world to learn your language, AND be prepared for the rig to be opened or not allowed on the airplane at all! (as TSA in the U.S. reserves the right to do). While this doesn't happen very often it can.

And not surprising that documents from a French agency and French.speaking company are in French.:S

I'm not sure if you're just being arrogant or completely obtuse. I wasn't aware of the documents till after the trip since I have never had trouble taking my rig on board previously - this was made very clear in my original post. Now I'm aware of them, I will take them. The purpose of my post was to seek advice based on what I'd found - no need for you to be offensive about it.

Saying I should learn French is also an absolutely absurd remark to say. Do you learn the language of every country you go on holiday to, Mr American Boy? I seriously doubt it! It's a generally-accepted rule that anyone working in the travel industry should speak English as this is the global lingua franca. My girlfriend who is Mauritian (native language is Créole) and works in the travel industry confirms this.

And why is it not surprising that the documents listed on the Vigil website are in French? Correct it's not surprising that documents from a French agency are in French. But I think you completely missed my point. What's surprising is that documents on Vigil's webpage concerning airport security worldwide (which is country-agnostic) are from a French agency/in French.


I think Terry was responding to the overall tone of self entitlement in your post. I would agree with him 100% and your response to him confirms it. I don't know why you feel people should be required to accommodate your needs at all times, but they are not. You are coming off as the English equivalent to the ugly American.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk

*********

I note that Vigil provide an X-ray card - would this be sufficient in future?

There are a number of other documents on the Vigil website here including an EU Classification document and DGAC - French Authorization letters. Réunion is in the EU incidentally. But it's interesting that these documents are also in French!

Any advice would be appreciated here as I am planning on going to Réunion at least once every month in the future.



Advice? Include some 'planning'. Like bring the documents provided to help with security, learning French since your visiting French territory rather than expecting everyone else in the world to learn your language, AND be prepared for the rig to be opened or not allowed on the airplane at all! (as TSA in the U.S. reserves the right to do). While this doesn't happen very often it can.

And not surprising that documents from a French agency and French.speaking company are in French.:S

I'm not sure if you're just being arrogant or completely obtuse. I wasn't aware of the documents till after the trip since I have never had trouble taking my rig on board previously - this was made very clear in my original post. Now I'm aware of them, I will take them. The purpose of my post was to seek advice based on what I'd found - no need for you to be offensive about it.

Saying I should learn French is also an absolutely absurd remark to say. Do you learn the language of every country you go on holiday to, Mr American Boy? I seriously doubt it! It's a generally-accepted rule that anyone working in the travel industry should speak English as this is the global lingua franca. My girlfriend who is Mauritian (native language is Créole) and works in the travel industry confirms this.

And why is it not surprising that the documents listed on the Vigil website are in French? Correct it's not surprising that documents from a French agency are in French. But I think you completely missed my point. What's surprising is that documents on Vigil's webpage concerning airport security worldwide (which is country-agnostic) are from a French agency/in French.


I think Terry was responding to the overall tone of self entitlement in your post. I would agree with him 100% and your response to him confirms it. I don't know why you feel people should be required to accommodate your needs at all times, but they are not. You are coming off as the English equivalent to the ugly American.

There was no tone of self-entitlement. I stated the facts free of emotion. Terry's response was emotion-driven and full of arrogance. I don't "feel people should be required to accommodate [my] needs at all time". However, there is a minimum level of service a paying customer should expect. And I expect to be able to take a rig on board as hand luggage and for security officers to be trained to recognise an AAD. I posted this topic for advice to ascertain if my expectation level is too high or if I should take alternative action such as carry the X-ray Card I found online, or write a letter of complaint (to which authorities?), or otherwise (such as put in the hold well packaged as others have suggested).

I don't really care about your emotional issues, but if you want to win the Internet today, feel free to carry on arguing.
He's doing his Superman thing.

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NeoX

And why is it not surprising that the documents listed on the Vigil website are in French? C



Because ALL international agreements/treaties/shit like that are drafted in French. Has always been.

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I knew about the X-Ray card before I even owned my own rig. I think you just didn't plan very well and, as a result, had this unfortunate experience.

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BigMikeH77

***And why is it not surprising that the documents listed on the Vigil website are in French? C



Because ALL international agreements/treaties/shit like that are drafted in French. Has always been.

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I knew about the X-Ray card before I even owned my own rig. I think you just didn't plan very well* and, as a result, had this unfortunate experience.

*read 'wasn't aware of the X-ray Card'

I'm glad you knew about the X-ray Card before you owned your own rig. I didn't. That means nothing other than you were told about it; I wasn't. You were lucky to have someone in your skydiving circle that had this information.
He's doing his Superman thing.

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NeoX

******And why is it not surprising that the documents listed on the Vigil website are in French? C



Because ALL international agreements/treaties/shit like that are drafted in French. Has always been.

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I knew about the X-Ray card before I even owned my own rig. I think you just didn't plan very well* and, as a result, had this unfortunate experience.

*read 'wasn't aware of the X-ray Card'

I'm glad you knew about the X-ray Card before you owned your own rig. I didn't. That means nothing other than you were told about it; I wasn't. You were lucky to have someone in your skydiving circle that had this information.


What it means to me is that you own an AAD and failed to read the manual. There is a lot of stuff in that manual that you should know. I'd suggest you do yourself a favour and sit down and read and understand all of it before your next jump. Instead of relying on someone in your skydiving circle to spoon feed you what you need to know.

After you do that, sit down with you container manual and read that too. You probably don't have to read the canopy manual, but you could. They are all available for free download. If you bought used and did not get the manuals that is no excuse, they are all available for download. They are generally printed in English, so you won't have any excuse there either.

Here is a link to the printable xray card. Don't say I never spoon fed you anything. You're welcome.

http://www.vigil.aero/wp-content/uploads/X-RayCard1997.pdf

The document you are referring to on the website is the French government's authorization to carry the device on French airlines. What language would you expect it to be in? There is also an EU letter. Since Britain is barely in the EU these days why would it be in English?
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk

What it means to me is that you own an AAD and failed to read the manual. There is a lot of stuff in that manual that you should know. I'd suggest you do yourself a favour and sit down and read and understand all of it before your next jump. Instead of relying on someone in your skydiving circle to spoon feed you what you need to know.


You are wrong in that I failed to read the manual because I read the entire manual the day I received my rig. It contains nothing about airport security or X-ray Cards. Therefore you are also wrong about me "relying on someone in [my] skydiving circle to spoon feed [me] what [I'] need to know" re my AAD (since I have read the entire manual).

gowlerk

After you do that, sit down with you container manual and read that too. You probably don't have to read the canopy manual, but you could. They are all available for free download. If you bought used and did not get the manuals that is no excuse, they are all available for download. They are generally printed in English, so you won't have any excuse there either.


I have already read my container manual the day I received my rig. I'm not sure why you're mentioning this as it is off-topic, but this is making you appear stupid as you are presuming things that are incorrect. I also did not buy used, and I have not made any excuses. Nor did I make any excuse about the language they are written in.

gowlerk

Here is a link to the printable xray card. Don't say I never spoon fed you anything. You're welcome.

http://www.vigil.aero/wp-content/uploads/X-RayCard1997.pdf


This is the exact same link I posted in my first post - I am unsure why you are reposting the same link. I'd suggest you do yourself a favour and sit down and read and understand all of this topic before your next post. Also, I never thanked you and I did not ask you to spoonfeed me.

gowlerk

The document you are referring to on the website is the French government's authorization to carry the device on French airlines. What language would you expect it to be in? There is also an EU letter. Since Britain is barely in the EU these days why would it be in English?


I'll paraphrase what I replied to Terry as you and he seem to be equally dense in understanding my point...

Correct it's not unexpected that documents from a French agency are in French. But I think you completely missed my point. What's unexpected is that documents on Vigil's webpage concerning airport security worldwide (which is country-agnostic) are from a French agency/in French. Do you get it now?

And what has "Britain" got to do with anything? I don't even live in "Britain" wherever "Britain" is. And you talk about "Britain's" involvement in the EU as if I care. I don't.
He's doing his Superman thing.

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I don't know why i'm bothering, since your not willing to listen to your elders let alone your betters but,

We took you at your word in your profile you lived in London, England, and that you have a Vigil II. The original Vigil manual, not applicable for your Vigil II, does not mention an xray card because AAD hadn't bothered to make one. All versions of the Vigil II manual do tell you to take your card with you. Try reading a little closer.

Quote

When traveling on any commercial flight with your Vigil®
, this manual - as well as the Vigil X-Ray Card - should
accompany you. It contains explanations that will be useful to the airport security staff.
The most recent manual is available on the Vigil®
website at http://www.vigil.aero/ on the download page.



And yes your expectations are too high; of documents, of workers knowledge and language skills, of your ability to take your rig carry on for which you have no right, and probably for the rest of the world.

I'm done.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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councilman24

I don't know why i'm bothering, since your not willing to listen to your elders let alone your betters but,

We took you at your word in your profile you lived in London, England, and that you have a Vigil II. The original Vigil manual, not applicable for your Vigil II, does not mention an xray card because AAD hadn't bothered to make one. All versions of the Vigil II manual do tell you to take your card with you. Try reading a little closer.

Quote

When traveling on any commercial flight with your Vigil®
, this manual - as well as the Vigil X-Ray Card - should
accompany you. It contains explanations that will be useful to the airport security staff.
The most recent manual is available on the Vigil®
website at http://www.vigil.aero/ on the download page.



And yes your expectations are too high; of documents, of workers knowledge and language skills, of your ability to take your rig carry on for which you have no right, and probably for the rest of the world.

I'm done.



I've looked more closely at my Vigil 2+ manual and I can see that it does indeed say on page 5 that I should carry the manual (which I do) and the X-ray Card on any commercial flight. I was wrong and I apologise to both you and gowlerk for being wrong on this point. I am humble therefore capable of apologising. I trust I'll get no apology for your offensive words towards me. But I am young and can handle it.

I disagree that my expectations of the language skills of workers in the travel industry are too high however for the reasons mentioned earlier, but that's irrelevant to this topic, so not worth arguing.

On my right to take my rig as hand luggage, I find it interesting that I "have no right" to do so. I thought that I had the right to take on any hand luggage I wanted that wasn't in the list of disallowed items. However, I also understand that security have the right to refuse anything they consider a risk. This to me is a logical conflict that would only arise due to a misjudgement of said risk. I believed security officers should recognise an AAD based on training, but wanted to test that posit by posting this topic. I now understand that this expectation was too high and that the X-ray Card is the key to preventing the misjudgement of the aforementioned risk. Therefore, I will take the X-ray Card with me in future unless I have the option to put the rig in the hold (depending on hold allowance). So, thank you for helping me eventually get to the information I was looking for. Shame it needed to go round the houses of Internet arguing.

PS: My profile lists my location as such because it was the last place I lived before my current country which is not available in the dropdown box; therefore, I cannot select my current country on dropzone.com.
He's doing his Superman thing.

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"Therefore, I will take the X-ray Card with me in future unless I have the option to put the rig in the hold (depending on hold allowance). "

Unless? You should have the x-ray card with you regardless of whether you plan to take your rig in the cabin or as checked baggage. Security agents who insist a rig is suspect, then order it be transported in a cargo hold without confirming the absence of an explosive device are negligent and potentially put everyone aboard that aircraft at risk.

"They were fucking with you. It's what the French do when you are not French."

French Canadians sometimes, too, though most are quite friendly these days. I flew to Quebec City 2 weeks after a vote to secede from Canada failed twenty+ years ago. My colleague and I ordered the exact same meal. He went ballistic when he discovered he was charged 50% more than I. I ordered in broken French...he loudly insisted they take his order in English. When in Rome, do as the Romanians do. :)
JMO, Capt.
Northwest Airlink, Ret.

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WV177RG


"Therefore, I will take the X-ray Card with me in future unless I have the option to put the rig in the hold (depending on hold allowance). "

Unless? You should have the x-ray card with you regardless of whether you plan to take your rig in the cabin or as checked baggage. Security agents who insist a rig is suspect, then order it be transported in a cargo hold without confirming the absence of an explosive device are negligent and potentially put everyone aboard that aircraft at risk.



Interesting, as this is exactly what they did in my case. I did wonder, but I just assumed they knew what they were doing (as there were lots of security officers involved all agreeing on the decision to put my rig in the hold). I just thought perhaps it's considered less of a risk in the hold because a bomb (that doesn't bring the plane down) would be better to go off in the hold away from the passengers than in the cabin where passengers would surely die regardless of whether the plane is brought down or not.

WV177RG


"They were fucking with you. It's what the French do when you are not French."

French Canadians sometimes, too, though most are quite friendly these days. I flew to Quebec City 2 weeks after a vote to secede from Canada failed twenty+ years ago. My colleague and I ordered the exact same meal. He went ballistic when he discovered he was charged 50% more than I. I ordered in broken French...he loudly insisted they take his order in English. When in Rome, do as the Romanians do. :)



They didn't speak English. I know the difference, and I know Réunion, as does my girlfriend who is Mauritian and speaks French, Créole and English. Let's not get into conspiracy theories. :)
He's doing his Superman thing.

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Travel enough, even with the the correct documents and you will still end up having to open it up or check it.

I have had the TSA require me to open the main tray and in Australia they forced me to check it simply based on the weight. I know people that have had to open the reserve.

As a rule I will just go ahead and check it unless I am going to a critical event. I carry on my Wingsuit and helmet which are impossible to borrow off someone else.

It is all just part of the adventure.
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

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In the US, the Pilot in Command has the ultimate legal authority:
"§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." Likely similar PIC authority in most, if not all, other countries.
Time permitting, you could respectfully ask for the captain's permission to carry your rig in the cabin. (Expect additional x-ray, "sniffer" and/or visual inspections.) Don't expect security personnel to know all the rules.

Wasn't suggesting conspiracy in your case. Your language skills and knowledge of local culture should have helped resolve this in your favor. Polite, direct appeal to the captain might have produced desired result. My Cypres 1 and Cypres 2 both came with x-ray cards.

To the gent who insisted English is the de facto international language: spend some time listening to JFK bound foreign aircrews transmitting on NY approach control frequency...don't forget the popcorn. :)

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....... security officers involved all agreeing on the decision to put my rig in the hold). I just thought perhaps it's considered less of a risk in the hold because a bomb (that doesn't bring the plane down) would be better to go off in the hold away from the passengers than in the cabin where passengers would surely die regardless of whether the plane is brought down or not.

***

.............................................................................

Warped logic at best?????
Airplanes are surprisingly fragile. Explosives in the baggage hold can still make them fall out of the sky. Just look at the Air India bombing: 300+ dead. And a Japan-bound flight narrowly missed a similar fate when only baggage-handlers died.
May I suggest adding the (American) FAA letter? Lots of skydivers leave a copy of the letter laying inside their luggage, on top of their rig. The FAA letter can be down-loaded from the USPA website.

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.......

"They were fucking with you. It's what the French do when you are not French."

French Canadians sometimes, too, though most are quite friendly these days. I flew to Quebec City 2 weeks after a vote to secede from Canada failed twenty+ years ago. My colleague and I ordered the exact same meal. He went ballistic when he discovered he was charged 50% more than I. I ordered in broken French...he loudly insisted they take his order in English. When in Rome, do as the Romanians do. :)
....................................................................................

Yes, the French do that to anyone who is not French.

I felt the brunt of that being raised and educated in an English-language town in Quebec. By the 1970s, Quebec separatists had become obnoxious, so I left.
A few years later, I discovered a talent for accents.
Eventually I got my revenge by learning a variety of languages.
I speak German well enough to do tandems.
I know how to say "big banana" in 6 languages!
Hah!
Hah!
My Spanish vocabulary may be limited, but my accent sounds like a well-educated Mexican.
Korean shop-keepers bow when I thank them.
Japanese students giggle when I greet them.
A Sikh recently complimented my pronunciation of a Punjabi phrase.
A Quebec-born carpenter recently asked me "what is your mother-tongue?"

Bottom line: locals respect you when you make the effort to learn their language ... at least tourist-level.

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WV177RG

In the US, the Pilot in Command has the ultimate legal authority:
"§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." Likely similar PIC authority in most, if not all, other countries.
Time permitting, you could respectfully ask for the captain's permission to carry your rig in the cabin. (Expect additional x-ray, "sniffer" and/or visual inspections.) Don't expect security personnel to know all the rules.
:)



Don't expect the PIC to know all the rules and details around rigs either. Also, if you go that route, and the PIC says no, you have no recourse. That's it.

Also, we should all be thankful of the work done by Airtec, AAD, and various skydiving associations that allows us to carry on rigs. Before anyone else complains about TSA types reacting to what's in the cutter, you should educate yourselves as to what goes in there... Hint: it ain't levers and pulleys.
Remster

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