Pull bridle when PC in tow?

[WaffleCrisp 0]

Hello guys

First of all I want to clarify that I know there are plenty of posts about PCITs. Don't know if there are posts about this specific situation but it'd be a long time to find'em (or it). If you are like "Oh god, same post again", pardon me, you don´t have to answer, I did search.

So... I've discussed this with some guys at my "local" DZ and the thing is, if you pull and nothing comes out, do you think is it a good option to try and pull the bridle back in order to release the pin? My instructors told me I could do it but the common procedure (if not going straight to silver) is to elbow the container. I understand that this malfunction can mean the container is too small and the pin is allready out, so the technique would be useless.

I'm just asking if you think this is a good idea. I think it can be, depending on the opening altitude.

[councilman24 36]

I would be dead if I did this. I had a PC in tow due to a tight mid winter/dry air pack job and rough pin. If I pulled my reserve immediately and still went into the trees with partially open canopies (main came out too). Yes it was a low deployment for lots of reasons but not completely unreasonable.

PC's used to tow for lots of reasons. We used to use a bend of the bridle through an elastic loop and they would hang up. We used to use straight pins on throw outs. We used to use plated pins that would snag. With belly band and leg strap throw outs things would be twisted preventing the PC from loading the pin. and more and more.

For a lot of these, at some stages of development for most of the PC's in tow, pulling the bridle would not have helped and only wasted time.

The other two alternative procedures are cutaway and pull your reserve (so main leaves if it comes out) or pull reserve and THEN deal with main if it comes out. I prefer the later since the first one would also have killed me.

With a PC in tow you are still in freefall and have seconds to react. To me wasting ANY time is wrong. With higher opening altitudes these days you might have the time but again, with many of the failure modes NOT being fixed by pulling on the bridle should you waste the time? I say no. Also remember that PC is developing 80 to 120 lbs of force if it's inflated. How much more can you had reaching back to the middle of your back? If is ISN'T inflated (not cocked, knotted) do you want the container open with a PC that may not have enough drag to lift the bag and deploy the main, or if it does it may be very slow. Or if the bridle is tangled around something you may create a horse shoe malfunction, the worst think to have.

In fact I saw a friend do this. She had a twisted leg strap with a leg strap throw out pouch. PC was never going to pull the bag. She reached back, pulled the pin and created a horse shoe malfunction. She was hanging from the horse shoe, spinning and heading for the corn. I saw here pull her reserve and still thought she wasn't going to make it. The ROUND reserve snaked up past the horse shoed main ram air and opened above the mess. She was still adding line twists to the reserve lines from the spin under the horseshoe when she landed.

All in all if the PC isn't working you don't have time to figure out why and if pulling the pin by hand will help or hurt. Either pull the cutaway and pull your reserve or, better in my opinion, pull your reserve.

Side bar. When we were still training SL students with ripcords and then transitioning newbies to throw outs we had an instructor (now deceased) who use to train the newbies that if they had a PC in tow they should roll onto their back, PULL IN THE PC, and hang on to it while they rolled back over and pulled their reserve. Now if you want something that a 20 jump wonder, let alone ANYBODY, SHOULD NOT BE DOING, it's this. And of course he was the kind of asshole who would start a physical fight if you told him he was wrong. We corrected his training later.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[irishrigger 31]

I firmly believe that is a very poor option to try to reach back and try to pull the bridle.
in my opinion you will be wasting valuable time in attempting this. do what you should have been trained to do. look locate peel punch pull! i agree with Terry, if a 120mph wind will not extract it, forget it and do EP. if it is collapsed i do not want it trying to extract my main canopy from the bag.

but there is a very simple solution to this issue and prevent this nasty incident from happening in the first place!

DO A PROPER GEAR CHECK BEFORE PUTTING THE RIG ON YOUR BACK AND ASK YOUR JM OR INSTRUCTOR ON THE LOAD TO GIVE YOU A GEAR CHECK !!!

this can be 100% prevented before boarding the aircraft!

[councilman24 36]

irishrigger

DO A PROPER GEAR CHECK BEFORE PUTTING THE RIG ON YOUR BACK AND ASK YOUR JM OR INSTRUCTOR ON THE LOAD TO GIVE YOU A GEAR CHECK !!!

this can be 100% prevented before boarding the aircraft!

Actually, a gear check wouldn't have helped mine. Nothing to find. Pin from that era was good but was steel and had a little corrosion - same as everyones. PC was a F-111 and a little tried. Was a low speed deployment. And was a really tight pack job due to the low humidity. Nothing a gear check would have found but some things I could have fixed had I thought/realized it might tow.

BUT, it is true that most tows can be prevented with a gear check.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Di0 1]

I would totally do that if it was the reserve PC in tow and my last chance to save my life, sure thing, it's pretty much your only option at that point.
But my main? F-that, there is another perfectly good parachute (hopefully) on my back, I would use it.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[Mr.Bill 0]

True story, I picked up an old worn out PC someone was going to throw away. While driving down the road at about 45 mph I decided to see how much pull a PC had. Wrapped the bridle around my hand and pitched the PC out the window……..Damn near broke my arm. Try it some time but start at 30 mph and then decide if you can pull a pin harder than the PC at 120 mph.

[yoink 321]

No.

I think most PCITs are cause by misrigged gear - the bridle routed under the flaps in an incorrect sequence, and you could pull on it all day and it's not going to come free.

I'd rather deal with a 2 out and have the altitude to do it.

[DvK 2]

Had a PCIT twice. 1st one was when I had around 90 jumps. I looked when I felt nothing was happening and saw my pilot bouncing, but not resulting in a deployment. I did full EP and was under a good reserve at 2500'.

Second one was earlier this year. Circumstances on the jump made me pull a bit higher then usual. I felt that the pilot wasn't doing it's job, reached back, pulled on the bridle, felt the pin pop and helped the bag out a bit with getting it out of my container. Had a fairly good opening.

So yes, you can do it. The outcome can be good. Someone else said later on that he would go sitfly to get some speed and help the pilot out a bit

[obelixtim 100]

Quote

Someone else said later on that he would go sitfly to get some speed and help the pilot out a bit

Dumb advice from the soon to be dead.

Opening altitude, already used a few seconds determining there is a problem, so lets increase our descent rate, and hope it solves a problem which it probably won't. DGIT.

EP training is done the way it is for a reason. Stick to it.

Altitude is precious. Don't waste it. Stop the freefall!!.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[dthames 0]

While I was a SL student, I saw another SL student on his first "clear and pull", have a slow pin pull. He reached back and pulled it. I expect if he would have waited 2 more seconds he would have had speed enough that it would have taken care of itself.

I always thought I would do the same if faced with a similar situation. Early this year, flying a wingsuit and with a long bridle, I pitched and nothing happened. My first reaction was to shake like a wet dog and then I got deployment. The bridle had tied itself in a knot with the PC in the middle of the knot, choking off inflation of the PC. I can tell you I was not thinking, "If this doesn't work I am going to reach back there and see what is wrong". I was not thinking that. I can't say for sure what I would have done next but it would have been cutaway and reserve or just reserve. It would not have including reaching back for the bridle. But that is just me.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[Liemberg 0]

Actually, knowing how your (human) mind works in emergencies / high stress situations is of the utmost importance when premeditating a course of action.

If there IS a decision to be made - other than "I just did what usually stops the freefal portion of the jump, counted to three and I'm still in freefal - NO OPENING SHOCK --> Sh#t! --> EP's!" - it follows that - once you allow yourself a choise - you have to analyse what is going on and then decide if you chose A: your repeatedly trained EP's or B: something else (grab your bridle, shake your ass, go into sitfly, smack your container or any combination...)

It also follows that this analyses could eat up a large portion of the one thing you are running out of in 12-8 seconds from NOW: Useful time...

It also follows that even choosing B 'as fast as you can' holds the risk that this was the wrong choise (can't get hold of the bridle, shaking my ass doesn't work etcetera) and you end up choosing 'delayed A'...

Even if you are succesful here, logic dictates that with 'delayed A' you will be under an unfamiliar canopy, closer to the ground than you would have been had you just reacted like an 'automated Zombie' (After pull in freefal? EP's ASAP) No time to catch your breath - you will land, wether you are prepared or not... And al of a sudden it is doubtful if you can safely cross the crocodile pond / dense urban area / high trees / high voltage powerlines / the railroad track / vineyard / lions den etcetera

Wether the benefit of 'saving the day' by choosing B, thus not having to pay for a repack, buying beer for your mates and a bottle of liquor for your rigger outweights the benefit of choosing A and (in all likelyhood) saving your life - I leave for you to decide...

Some wisdom from the days (long gone) of pull-out pilot chutes where there was a pud connected to both the bottom of your PC AND a straight pin that held your container closed. Though it guaranteed a 'positive opening of your PC' you could end up grabbing the lower right corner of your container only to find that the pud wasn't there anymore.

Since most of us didn't have AAD's either the most common way to get yourself killed with that setup was spending the rest of your life feeling for the pud that "had to be" dancing around near the lower right corner of your rig...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[stayhigh 2]

There is lots of thread about routing the closing loop pin in certain direction, non-smiley face method or the newer vector closing or PDF method.

I've had PC in tow when my bridle got lock by my own closing pin. It eventually cleared with fat burn mark on my bridle. At the time I tried to reach for my bridle and couldn't do so. I had Mirage G4. MT. So I bang the fuck out of side of my container.


You wear your rig, arch on the ground and see if you can reach the bridle.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[WaffleCrisp 0]

[Side bar. When we were still training SL students with ripcords and then transitioning newbies to throw outs we had an instructor (now deceased) who use to train the newbies that if they had a PC in tow they should roll onto their back, PULL IN THE PC, and hang on to it while they rolled back over and pulled their reserve.Crazy Now if you want something that a 20 jump wonder, let alone ANYBODY, SHOULD NOT BE DOING, it's this. And of course he was the kind of asshole who would start a physical fight if you told him he was wrong. We corrected his training later.Angelic ]

Wow, that sounds scarry. Good to hear you got to correct the instructr

[WaffleCrisp 0]

Thanks a lot for the replies guys, after reading all these posts I am guessing most of you are right. Things make sense.

I never considered the fact that the PC might be deflated (is that term right?), making this option a complete waste of time. The "correct" prodedures though, sounds a bit scarry in case the main decides to come out.

Still, If you are the last jumper out and are going to pull at 8k...
Wouldn´t trying this once be the the "safe" way?

But yeah, let´s keep up with gear checks and more gear checks
The only malfunctions I've had were a tight pull and a hard opening.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Good analysis of the situation and possible plans of action. I, too, remember the 70's and 80's and all the hard learned lessons of the gear revolution.

When in doubt, just pull the reserve.

[jimjumper 25]

I used to jump an SOS system and it makes the cutaway and reserve pull a quick operation for this type of malfunction. I went back to using a 2 handle system when I started teaching AFF since I didn't want to demonstrate and teach a system I wasn't using. Since I am no longer instructing I am considering returning but it would be tough to get my rig converted by someone that knows what they are doing.

[councilman24 36]

The only critical part about switching it to a sos is the relative length of the ripcord cable and the cutaway cables.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[JohnMitchell 14]

SOS was a nice system. I had one for my AFF students for a while. Plus a DZ I taught at had those.

[Liemberg 0]

Quote

The "correct" prodedures though, sounds a bit scarry in case the main decides to come out.

Which is why I have always been advocating:

1. Only jump rigs with some sort of velcro / tongue / magnet closure on your main risers
2. Cut away & pull reserve.

Again, there's the 'I'm wasting time analysing' conundrum - that is best counteracted with 'I'm probably just as stupid as the next person, so I better follow ONE course of action that works ALWAYS.'

YMMV - what else is new? ...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[BIGUN 1,053]

Please read this:

http://parachutehistory.com/malfunctions/intow.html

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[WaffleCrisp 0]

Done

Thank you all for the advice. I´m not an active jumper right now but will review the topic when I get back to jumping

BTW, this drew my attention because it was actually in an instructional video that my coaches used, just remembered it a few days ago. The segment in particular was about the Pilot Chute in Tow malfunction and there were a few examples of the diver pulling the reserve, in one of them he actually reached back to pull the bridle (and it apparently worked). Now it seems weird that this appeared in an instructional video, maybe he was using another system?