First Time Owner!

[bdenny20 0]

Welp, I'm in upstate NY and the 2015 season for my dropzone ends today...and it's raining cats and dogs. Swell.

Had a helluva year, I went for a training tandem on a whim in June and decided that it was pretty fun and went for my A.

Now the season is over, it's time to stop giving away money for rentals and to start socking away cash for my own gear for use next year.

I'm a not a tiny person, 5'11" and 220lbs. I did my AFF and student status on a Navigator 240, but their selection of rentals for heavier people was really limited. As soon as I got my A, I moved up (down?) to a Navigator 200. I figured I'd either break my legs or learn really quickly. The latter occurred thankfully. When I get older, I'm probably going to shake my head at some of the less bright decisions I made now...especially considering my health insurance is provided by the less than stellar VA.

But I'm not here for that. I'm here to see if anyone's got the in on big boy gear. I can buy new, but that's on the very end of my budget and I'd rather have some money left over for food. So I'm looking at lightly used.

I'm figuring out that this is not a fat guy sport. Sure, there are rigs out there, but the majority of them at under 150sq ft.

Do y'all recommend going to any of these retail sites and buying a 'complete rig,' or purchasing the components separately and putting it together myself? (with help...)

The Sabre2 190 seems to be a popular item I see a lot of...I would probably have to lose some weight this winter before I go even smaller...I don't do too bad with the 200. I can usually land standing up 85%-90% of the time, even better when the winds are favorable. So the 190 isn't too far fetched if I can get my fat ass on the treadmill.

Ideally, I'd like something with options. The rental rigs are far from desirable, and I've hardly had any openings where I didn't feel like my lower body was being thrown into a trash compactor. Not to mention they are as far from free flight friendly as they come.

(I got busted once back flying by an instructor...this was before I really knew what freeflight was and how I wasn't supposed to be doing it with student rigs...I'm glad nothing bad came from it...I really wish they covered that subject more when I was student...)

That's all I got...I guess I just wanted to throw my thoughts down on paper, here seemed like a good place to do so. I've got some time, our season is May-September.... I shoulda moved out to where my Grandparents are at...I hear nice things about Perris, CA. Once I graduate, fo sho.

Aight guys..I'm out. Talk to you later!

[LeeroyJenkins 2]

1) Ask your instructors, they are the only people who have seen you fly.

2) You being roughly 250 out the door you shouldn't be on anything smaller than a 210 and thats pushing it.

When you switch to a ZP canopy you do not want to do it while also downsizing. I am your size and my instructors told me to get something in the 210-230 size. That's what I did and it has worked out well.

[jbscout2002 1]

Here is some good info you should look at about downsizing. There are numerous articles and videos out there with very experienced skydivers warning against downsizing too fast. Sounds like you have a lot to learn still on a 200, and a Saber 2 is a little more aggressive than a Navigator so you have to account for that in addition to size.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

Here is some info on military discounts. You can just about get all new stuff with Wings and Icarus for the price of a typical used rig.

Best advice I've seen so far for first time gear buyers is to start with the reserve. Pick the right one for you weight and skill level and it will affect what your options are for main sizes, which will in turn determine what size container you get.

https://www.chutingstar.com/more/skydive/news/208-military-discounts-for-skydiving-gear-from-chutingstar

[yoink 321]

The only additional advice I'd give is don't buy gear assuming you're going to have lost weight over the winter.

What if you don't? Do you really think you wouldn't jump that 190?? I don't... and that'd put you up somewhere near a 1.3 wingloading - pretty dumb.

Lose weight then buy gear, or buy gear that's suitable for you now. If you're planning on not jumping much over winter it makes a lot more sense to focus on the weight loss, then take a some rental jumps while you pick back up in spring. Going in cold onto a newer, much smaller canopy is a really bad idea.

[bdenny20 0]

Thanks for the replies!

Let's see if I can get these in order:

I wish I had more direct supervision with my instructors... Unfortunately with the student and A-C DZ being far away from the hangar and the fact that it's always busy with tandems, I don't think I've had any landings supervised by an instructor. This was something I tried to get used to as AFF. There are some shortcomings with their program, but I tried to supplement the training as much as I could with studying on my own.

Thanks so much for the military discount information!! A number of those require proof of active service, but there are a few there that ask for proof of any service. Those I could probably make use of, I'm out on an honorable discharge these days.

Don't worry, I have no plan on doing anything too dumb. The Navigator 200 is as far as I'm willing to stretch right now. According to PD, at my weight...I should be at a skill level somewhere between intermediate and expert to fly that thing. I credit my ability to still be breathing today to flying carefully and by not attempting any crazy maneuvers. (I fly real boring like, in fact...the only reason I went down from the 240 was that I was having an incredibly hard time packing the damn thing.)

I may as well buy the main canopy last then. At least that way I have wiggle room at the end of winter and can buy a canopy that fits the weight I end up at.

[jbscout2002 1]

At this point I would probably chalk up the 85-90 percent successful landings to good flying conditions and luck. What if you hit low turbulence, or have to make a low turn to avoid a collision with someone just learning hook turns who zipped up on you by accident? How about land off the DZ, in a tight spot, cross wind or even down wind? Just like with motorcycles, you can do everything right and an outside variable can screw you over.

[mxk 1]

bdenny20

According to PD, at my weight...I should be at a skill level somewhere between intermediate and expert to fly that thing.

You are actually exceeding the maximum exit weight limit for that canopy (240 lbs) and are firmly in the expert category. Please read PD's Wing Loading Interpretations document to understand how to interpret the chart correctly.

bdenny20

the only reason I went down from the 240 was that I was having an incredibly hard time packing the damn thing

That's a really bad reason to downsize, especially since there is absolutely nothing difficult about packing a Nav 240. I'm the same weight as you, only 6'4". I jumped a Nav 240 until I had ~160 jumps, and now put over 150 jumps on a Spectre 230 with no plans to downsize in the near future. You should not be on a Nav 200.

Furthermore, what the is the size of the reserve in your container? I had my S&TA ask me if I'd like to start jumping a Nav 220 back when I was still on a 240, but the reserve that went with it was a PDR 193, which would have put me into the expert category, so I decided against it.

[bdenny20 0]

Ironically, I am in the market for a motorcycle as well. I traded in my Jeep after a few months of driving nearly 50 miles everyday to and from work. It was great for the past 5 years when it only left base once or twice a week. My new Civic is great on gas, but boring as all get out.

Back on topic though, I'm getting the vibe guys, don't think for a second I'm not. In fact, I was having the same concessions myself, and hid them only skin deep.

The good news is that I'm done until May. So I have plenty of time to not only work on my weight, (Not just for skydiving, but because I look damn fine when I'm in shape and the recent civilian lifestyle has been cruel) but also to perhaps work on a safer plan!

[jbscout2002 1]

Here you go, one of those "unicorn" big boy rigs.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/page.cgi?g=Detailed%2FComplete_Systems%2FComplete_Mirage_Rig_for_Big_Boy_Beginner_179113.html;d=1

[Joellercoaster 6]

They do exist! It can be frustrating looking for them though... "luckily" the OP has months to spend not jumping and trawling the classifieds now

To the OP, as a weird-shaped person, I hear ya. The sport, especially its second-hand gear market, is definitely much easier for the average size and shaped crowd. But hang in there, make patient decisions and don't let temptation or frustration sway you into doing something less than safe.

(The only second-hand rig I ever found that fit me looked completely awesome, but the reserve was a 110. Could I have landed it? Sure. Did I buy it? No. Would I buy it now, having some jumps on much more aggressive canopies that size? Also no :P)

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[NWFlyer 2]

Buying new vs. used doesn't have to be an "all or nothing" thing, either. As others have pointed out, you have plenty of time to be patient and keep an eye out for the deals. The other possibility is that you combine new and used parts; maybe a new container built to your size (and built to handle appropriately-sized canopies for your size and experience level), with used canopies and a used AAD. Or, you find a used system that lacks an AAD and you can buy one of those used (the market can be pretty tight on those) or new. The great thing about AADs is that they are the one thing that can go from rig to rig if you choose to downsize and/or buy new / different gear. They also hold their value well, depreciating in a linear fashion from DOM to date of expected (or required, depending on the manufacturer) time out.

Look broadly; classifieds on here (and look both in the categories for individual components as well as complete systems), and there's a whole mess of Facebook groups for used gear as well. eBay is a possibility but be cautioned that sales on there are more likely to be older gear sold by someone who doesn't really know what they have in hand (family member cleaning out a dead relative's older gear, someone who got an old rig in a storage unit auction, etc.). Better off to stick to skydivers (or skydiving gear dealers) selling to skydivers.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[bdenny20 0]

I'm all giddy!
Rigging Innovations said they'd hook me up with a 25% discount, looking at a Talon FS T7 container from them.

Jumpshack said they'd hook me up with 15% off on their canopies, so I'm looking at a Firebolt 218 and a PR-218 from them.

They also are giving me a Virgil for $1150. Nice!

How can I check the compatibility of the containers and canopies? On RI's website, the volume chart for the T7 only mentions the Sabre 2 230 and the Pilot 210. The PR-218 is listed, but I'm not sure about the main.

Thanks!

[jbscout2002 1]

That sounds good for the container/harness, and the AAD is a good deal if in fact you are talking about a Vigil 2+ as opposed to the original Vigil.

For the canopies, a couple things to take into consideration. The maximum legal exit weight on a PR 218 is 254 pounds, and you are likely pretty close to that now. If you eat well over the holidays, you could end up at a DZ that requires you to do a weigh in and you end up with a shiny new $6500 rig that you aren't allowed to jump. I'm a bigger guy, so I just spent the extra cash on an Optimum to give me a little more wiggle room. I have no experience with the Firebolt, but I am pretty sure it is fully elliptical, which at your current wing loading is going to be pretty zippy. You would be going from the student style square, skipping the mid range semi elliptical, and going straight for the higher performance.

I was rocking it on a Silhouette 230, so when I bought my rig I downsized to a 210 Pilot. I'm jumping at 300 feet above sea level in cool weather with steady 10 mph wind, and I'm hoping I grow into it before I screw up. If I had a do-over, I would get my rig, sized for the normal ZP 210, but start with a 230 Silhouette, Pulse, or Pilot ZPX. They will all pack about the same size as a 210 and they all pack easier than a fully ZP. But that's just my two cents.

[bdenny20 0]

Here's the link to the Firebolt.

http://www.jumpshack.com/webcatalog/default.asp?ProductID=FB218&SectionID=CANOPY&CategoryID=10

According to these guys, it's a semi-elliptical that is suitable for beginners at a lower loading, where I'm at it'd be around 1.07. I get that a retailer could exaggerate certain points to make a sale, but just saying.

I looked up reviews here at dropzone, and they were all overwhelmingly positive.

[bdenny20 0]

I stand corrected, it is fully elliptical.

[jbscout2002 1]

If you still weigh in at 220, your exit weight is going to be about 245-250, putting you at a wing loading of 1.12-1.15 on a 218. On the Jumpshack website, they describe the Firebolt as being suitable for students at a .5-.6, and at .85-1.6, they compare it to the Stilleto, Spectre, and Crossfire. Like I said though, none of this come from actual experience with the Firebolt, I'm just sharing with you data that I've read while conducting hours upon hours of my own research when I was putting my stuff together.

[bdenny20 0]

Yeah, your math is spot on, not sure where I got my numbers. I weighed myself today, I'm at 210. I figure with a larger rig would come in around 35lbs, so 245lbs is accurate.

Jump Shack doesn't have a veteran discount, they're making an exception for me because I asked so nicely. I don't want to overstay that courtesy by waiting all winter to see how my body weight fluctuates. I should probably go with the 236.

I already changed up the container, Wings is giving me a very good deal, and they're lifetime veteran support, that is something I value.

[jbscout2002 1]

Might be a good idea to just wait and see if someone with real experience on a Firebolt can weigh in before you pull the trigger on something in haste. You can talk to the rep at Jumpshack about your experience level and near term goals. If they offered you that discount, I don't see why they wouldn't be flexible on timing with you. Also just an FYI, Icarus offers 10% discount to vets on mains, and I don't know if they still do, but were offering a 15% discount to vets who bought an Icarus main and Nano reserve together.

[jbscout2002 1]

And my math is crap. I found a couple apps for Android that I've found helpful (I'm sure Apple has the same ones). 1. Wing Load Calculator. 2. Spot Assist. 3. USPA SIM. and if you are interested in taking a Senior Rigger Course there is an app by Ground School Acadamy for test prep, but it is $35.

[bdenny20 0]

I knew about Icarus, I talked to the lady at Chuting Star, and she didn't understand why it's an ironic name for a parachute company.

The only reason I went with Jump Shack is that they answered their phone promptly while Icarus ran me through loops on their automated phone system and I didn't get to talk to a real person.

I'll give it a shot again tomorrow.

[jbscout2002 1]

Ah, I never attempted to contact Icarus. For me it came down to them and Aerodyne, and I liked the color coded line attachments so I emailed Aerodyne and they squared me away with no problems. I did everything through Chutingstar and Laura was definitely a five star person.

[bdenny20 0]

Okie dokie, while I got you here.

Since I got some time to kill before Icarus opens up again tomorrow, and I'm working the overnight with nothing going on, let's touch on container options.

I'm having a hard time differentiating items that should be needed vs. purely luxury items.

I'm sure I will have this container for a long time to come, but getting the right combinations of options to maintain an attractive resell value is probably a good idea.

Here is the link to Wings' options page. I quickly get carried away, then next thing you know I have another $1200 in options added on.

http://skydivewings.com/order/pricing-and-options/




(Thanks by the way for the support so far, it's highly appreciated.)

[jumpsracer 5]

Try a PD PULSE. I have them in both my Racers and love them! Easy to pack and pretty much a no brainer when flaring. When you want to down-size you'll have no problem re-selling it as long as it's taken care of. I'm loading my 190's at 1.3 and have no problems with landings!! My exit weight with gear is around 260 so that should give you some idea of performance. Stay away from the FireBolt....had 4 sold 4! Before you buy, try. PD has a canopy demo program as does JumpShack. Delivery time from JumpShack is around 5-6 weeks so you can wait till you weight comes down. PS, Their AngleFire reserve is great. I have one ride one mine and stood it up in the peas!

[jbscout2002 1]

Honestly, with people our size, used rigs are harder to find, so when it is time to sell it you won't have any trouble. Don't buy for resell, buy what you want to jump. A hook knife, collapsible PC, and RSL would be on my list of needs. For us bigger guys, foam leg pads are worth their weight in gold. Articulation will add comfort, make future repairs and harness resizing cheaper, and add strength by removing binding points in the webbing. In the long run stainless steal is a good investment. I've heard the cut in laterals on the latter harnesses make it uncomfortable, but the one I tried didn't have them so I don't know. To save money and help with resell, stick to a moderate coloring scheme and don't add a bunch of extra pin stripes and custom embroidery.