Cypres vs Vigil: Pluses and Deltas

[Guest]

Hi all,

My Cypres-1, purchased in 1999 (and which had 5-year service) died while I was away working overseas. My rigger removed it during recent reserve repack. Fortunately, the batteries did not leak.

I'm considering another AAD, and am interested in the advantages and disadvantages of the Cypres 2 versus Vigil, or other brands which might be considered (except for that goofy Russian mechanical job - not going near that thing).

Comments?

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[DougH 270]

My M2 was around 900 dollars. It hasn't operated when it shouldn't have yet since installing it this year, and I haven't given it an opportunity to try to save me either.

Plus for me was lower cost, and no scheduled mtx. I ended up jumping without my cypress 2 installed for a while when it was out for service, or when it was returned from service mid repack.

Not having to take it out and send it in means that I am more likely that jump with it, and avoid having periods of time with no AAD. Yes I know you can rent them during mtx, I am just too busy to deal with arranging all of that.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[GAjumper84 0]

If you search for it, you can find the thread where I was going through the same decision six months ago.

I ended up with a vigil2. No 4 yr maintenance, same cost of ownership as the M2 given it is rated for 20yrs. Yes the cost up front was a little higher, but it is made up for over the years. Vigil has been around quite a long time and my rigger recommends them highly (apparently everyone out there is on one team or the other). Cypres is obviously a great product, but it costs basically twice what the others do over the life of the unit. And you have to deal with the downtime. The Mars M2 and Vigil2 have both been proven effective in the field IMO with Vigil having a longer track record.

[Joellercoaster 6]

I think nowadays it really comes down to how you feel about the security of 4-year servicing vs the inconvenience of 4-year servicing.

I have one of each, so clearly it was decisive for me

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[JWest 0]

I have used a cypress and Vigil 2. I trust both to do their job. As for the maintenance the cypress does cost more and there is the downtime. However I have heard at some DZs if they require an AAD they will let you use rental gear for free/discounted. Now I don't know how true that really is but it would be worth checking out. Personally I don't mind having a life saving device checked out every few years for the cost of a night at the bars.

[nigel99 143]

Joellercoaster

I think nowadays it really comes down to how you feel about the security of 4-year servicing vs the inconvenience of 4-year servicing.

I have one of each, so clearly it was decisive for me

Vigil will do a service for you if you ask. They just don't force the issue or rape you for the service costs (mine cost shipping only)

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[bennibluesky 0]

The cost of buying a cypres unit and running it for 12,5 years are peanuts compared to the money you spend when you make 100, 200, 300 or more jumps a year. So I'd chose the one which is most reliable, and for some reasons thats cypres. I've seen a cypres even cutting the reserve steel cable while other AADs fail to just cut the loop or were delivered without any cutter at all.

You also get free software updates when you send your unit for maintenance. And I bet every manufacturer who claims that his device will work for 20 years without maintenance is lying. Just because every electronic component is aging and the risk of failure is increasing over time, so I cant see that theres an alternative to sending every unit into maintenance to reduce the risk of failure to a minimum possible.

Regarding maintenance: Your flexible, you can send your unit in half a year before or after the the 4 years. If somebody only makes 100 or 200 jumps a year I cant see that theres a problem finding a period of time to send in the unit.

Thats how I made my decision...

[hackish 8]

It is easier to sever a hardened steel cable than a piece of cypres cord with the type of cutter used by an AAD.

Cypres offers software updates included in the cost of their 4 year maintenance.

Vigil has also updated the software when users opted to send their AAD in for maintenance.

Certainly it is possible for electronic devices to function reliably for 20 years. Some electronic components in aircraft continue to function longer than 20 years in operation. To imply that a company is lying about this is completely unsubstantiated.

Every AAD manufacturer had growing pains at some point and both of the major brands have suffered failures. To my knowledge there is no independent statistically significant data available that shows one to be more reliable than the next.

By all means, please make the choice you like, but use real facts not fiction to educate yourself first.

-Michael

[mxk 1]

hackish

Every AAD manufacturer had growing pains at some point and both of the major brands have suffered failures. To my knowledge there is no independent statistically significant data available that shows one to be more reliable than the next.

Furthermore, one would hope that after every instance of incorrect operation (fired when it shouldn't have, didn't fire when it should have), the manufacturer would look in detail at that specific case and update the code to handle it correctly next time. This makes past examples poor indicators of current performance. A statistical analysis may not help much.

Reverse engineer the current hardware design and firmware if you want to know which one is better. For the hardware part, there is a teardown of CYPRES 1 here: http://www.eevblog.com/2012/08/22/eevblog-339-cypres-parachute-aad-teardown/.

As others have mentioned, the difference in the maintenance cycles is "required" vs. "optional." You are welcome to send in your Vigil for checks and a firmware update every four years or even more frequently.

Personally, I like Advanced Aerospace Designs more as a company. The seem to be more open with regard to data extraction and analysis, especially after an actual incident, and they are more upfront about the limitations of their products (such as in their recent PIA presentation).

[bennibluesky 0]

For sure it is possible for electronic devices to operate for more than 20 years. But reliable? Whats reliable?

You are comparing devices developed by multi billion dollar market size aerospace industry and products developed by manufacturers in the skydiving industry. Thats an inappropriately comparison, as the capabilities are different. You have to consider every single factor regarding aging of those devices. You simply cant say: It'll work for 20 years. You even cant say: It will work for 4 years.

But why do I use an AAD? I could also jump without an AAD 20 years not having any trouble. I do use an AAD to minimize the risk of potential fatal incidents. And I use an AAD which is most likely to operate correctly as it is well maintenanced. To suggest your customers your device will do it for 20+ years without maintenance is probably not more incorrect than telling them it will do it for 4+years but the chance of failure is way higher. And thats why advertising this product is wrong in my opinion.

Being on the dropzone every day and witnessing several 10,000s of jumps the past years, I have seen 1 cypres save and ZERO failures. I cant tell you an exact number, but the majority of the people (97%, 99% ? I dont know exactly) are using a cypres. All the rest a vigil or no AAD. Guess what? I saw 2 vigil missfires. 1x Solo jumper on an an straight in approach and one on a tandem in freefall. From the solo jumper I also know the response of the manufacturer, which was everything but satisfying. Those are the facts I do rely on.

I am well aware of the fact that it is easier to cut a steel cable than the cypres loop. But its still impressing. Just as impressing as to deliver cutters without blades inside. Every device is made by humans and so it might be imperfect, but there are errors which are, in my opinion, unforgivable.

Business competition is a useful thing, but atm I cant see the other AAD manufacturers are near sth to be competitive.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi mark,

Quote

Comments?

While I no longer jump, I have owned CYPRES, Vigil and Astra; never had to 'use' any of them. And now there is M2 in the mix.

>>> Blondes - Redheads - Brunettes

They will all do the same thing for you. Which do you prefer looking at in the morning?

Same with AADs IMO,

Jerry Baumchen

[piisfish 135]

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Cypres vs Vigil: Pluses and Deltas

A plus is a delta.

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Fortunately, the batteries did not leak.

did anyone ever heard of a Cypres battery leak ? I haven't (doesn't mean they don't exist)

I prefer the Cypres 2 fire/no fire parameters to the Vigil 2 parameters.
I like the lifetime warranty.
The price/duration/mandatory service is not cumbersome for me.
I do not like the "airborne mode" of Vigil.

I do not know enough about M2 to talk about it.
I know enough about the Vigil that I am OK to jump with it most of the times, but wouldn't purchase one.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM